POLL: Should Troop Carrying Aircraft Be The Next Official WGS Development?

[Tonx]

• YES
• NO
• UNSURE

A conversation with one of the pillars of our community yesterday inspired me to start this thread as to a potential future idea for WGS. When the Medium to Heavy Bombers first appeared courtesy of Ares Games they were ground breaking in their nature with an ethos behind them which significantly increased what WGS is still in my opinion able to offer. That was two years ago ... So now what? Where has WGS never gone before and what in terms of ethos could serve as it's next USP to sustain and generate new interest plus popularity without being either too advanced / ahead of it's time like my Avro Vulcan idea maybe proved to be or a complete game killer (e g nuclear weapons.)

My recent development of a non-combatant Air Sea Rescue Supermarine Spitfire Mk II develops upon the existing usage of Junkers Ju-52s and Douglas C-47A Skytrains amongst Aerodrome Members in other non-combatant roles even though these are not currently offered by Ares Games but the can still be obtained or built from Zvezda kits. This includes the transporting of troops / paratroops and equipment (logistics) by air which was though relatively unheard of during WW1 was of paramount importance during WW2 owing to inter-war development and advances in technology. They could also be used of course for VIP transportation however aircraft were being used for this by the end of WW1.

Who therefore shares my view that the next development for WGS should be Official and fully-functional of troop / paratroop and transport aircraft such as the Junkers Ju-52 and C-47A Skytrain? In many ways these would be just as effective as gaming resources as the Medium and certainly Heavy Bombers are and what they could bring to the game could be argued as equally as significant too. Consider what would be able to be offered in terms of versions and variants of these two opposing types alone or the other possibilities which are on offer certainly with regard to VIP transportation: RAF Consolidated Liberator Mk I or even the Mitsubishi G4M2 Betty on board which Yamamoto met his maker.

Or ... Do people carriers belong on Airliners.net and is moving stuff around the preserve of Sky TV's Shipping Wars!

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Would be nice but I doubt it.

[flash]

No - they'd be nice models but Ares have plenty of areas to develop into before going down this route.

[Caveman]

No...not yet anyway. I agree with Dave (Flash), many other preferable options to develop and produce prior to air-transports.

[Dan-Sam]

Not now, may be later. Just my 2c.

[Dom S]

With so many combat types missing this seems a risky choice, especially as the dirt cheap and readily available Zvezda models mean that the most enthusiastic possible customers may well have already done it themselves using those. I'd *really* worry about them becoming dust collectors on the shelves....

[Rebel]

I can think of other things I would like to see such as Generic Bases and more Maneuver card sets for non ares aircraft just to broaden the options.
As Dom says the Zvesda items are available and I might actually get round to putting them together sometime after I have brushed the dust off the boxes of course.

[Nightbomber]

No, until we have Corsair, 109F/G, 190, Spit V, Mossie, Haysbusa, Sturmovik, Yak 3... should I carry on?

[flash]

No, until we have Corsair, 109F/G, 190, Spit V, Mossie, Haysbusa, Sturmovik, Yak 3... should I carry on?

....Do17, Ju88, 'Wimpey', Blenheim... twin engined loveliness !

[Guntruck]

..... P38s, B24s, Catalinas, FW190As, Typhoons, definitely a Mossie (fighter and bomber).... then we can think about transports

[Jager]

Going with the majority: no. far too much needed (esp. reprints).
Karl

[Canestri10]

Good points but I think there are still aircraft that desperately need to be released for the good of the game in terms of acquiring new players.

Hellcat
Ju88
Betty (Bomber)
Oscar
Airacobra
1FW190A
Spitfire Mk V
B29
Helldiver
Avenger
A6M3 Zeke
Nate
Do17
Mosquito
Bf109G


Just to name a few not to mention the reprints we also badly need. Also I think flying boats deserve look at too.

[Stumptonian]

Have to get all those mentioned in the posts above first.
Hopefully we will see Do17 and Ju88 for the BoB release(s) we've been promised

[Boney10]

Its a no from me also, before we get even close to this type we need the basic planes reprinted, Spit 1&2, Hurricane and Me109 for BoB and Zero for the Pacific, then far too many other battle aircraft than transports.
Although I was under the impression that the "new" themed sets would not contain new models just reprints of the originals. So no Do17 or Ju88 with the BoB set, unless I got it wrong

[Rebel]

....Do17, Ju88, 'Wimpey', Blenheim... twin engined loveliness !

The Zvesda Blenheims and JU88's are quite nice; I have some of each.
2015-02-25 14.55.00.jpg

Sorry but can't find my Blenheim pics at the moment. I'll keep looking.

[Carl_Brisgamer]

Transport planes would just be targets. You could get by with just the Ju-52 and the C-47/Li-2 but only diehards would buy them.

I have 4 Ju-52s, 1 WW2 transport and 3 Spanish Civil War bomber/transports, but even then they rarely get a run.

Hmmm, I feel an historical scenario or two coming on....

[Nightbomber]

Transport planes would just be targets. You could get by with just the Ju-52 and the C-47/Li-2 but only diehards would buy them.

I have 4 Ju-52s, 1 WW2 transport and 3 Spanish Civil War bomber/transports, but even then they rarely get a run.

Hmmm, I feel an historical scenario or two coming on....

Yes, WGS is mostly a "dogfight system" when it really shines. The more engins, multiple crews and firing arcs the gameplay suffers a bit.

[tikkifriend]

A big No . Too many other planes need to be produced (or released on time)

[Hedeby]

At the end of the day its a game of aerial combat - you need to be able to fight back....

Its nice that we can go elsewhere for some of these aircraft but if I was ARES I would struggle to find a rationale for such a release. (especially as stated elsewhere, so many classic planes have yet to see the light of day.. where are the Mosquitos and BE2c?

[Canestri10]

Notice how ME410 never even entered my mind when making the list of essential planes yet it's in the next series

[Naharaht]

Transport aircraft were vital in a support role but in an air combat game they would just be 'sitting ducks'.

[Diamondback]

Or "scenario pieces" where you score by getting 'em off the map or knocking 'em down.

Great idea, just that now may not be the right time for it--very much worthy of a Flag For Future Follow-Up though.

[milcoll73]

absolutely yes! pretty hard to do a proper, merkur, d-day or market garden scenario without them! they could easily be done as a specials pack vie kickstarter like the giants.

[Nightbomber]

Notice how ME410 never even entered my mind when making the list of essential planes yet it's in the next series

Same here. A very strange choice of Ares. There are so many more popular and attractive planes even for American market alone (Corsair!). Having this game for so long without Spit V and FW 190A is like having theX-Wing without Y-Wing and Tie Advanced. Can't understand that.

[Marechallannes]

We need the heavy destroyer groups to fight against USAAF bomber boxes.

(...beside this I would have preferred a Kawasaki Ki-45 Toryu as a heavy fighter - would fit perfect to the P-38)

[Nightbomber]

We need the heavy destroyer groups to fight against USAAF bomber boxes.

Fw 190 A Sturmbock version would do the job as it was historically .

OSPDUE024_500.jpeg

[Canestri10]

We need the heavy destroyer groups to fight against USAAF bomber boxes.

(...beside this I would have preferred a Kawasaki Ki-45 Toryu as a heavy fighter - would fit perfect to the P-38)

I have to completely agree with both of you regarding the Ki-45, FW190A and Spit V. Glaring ommissions.

Also I really hope Ares stop the 2 well known 1 less known release scheme. The lesser known schemes should be left for painters to paint themselves if they must, it certainly won't win many new fans to the game if any.

[Dan-Sam]

Same here. A very strange choice of Ares. There are so many more popular and attractive planes even for American market alone (Corsair!). Having this game for so long without Spit V and FW 190A is like having theX-Wing without Y-Wing and Tie Advanced. Can't understand that.

By the way, did you try to play with Fw.190A? We played it two weeks ago - with cannons it is a same butcher as Beaufighter... And I am sure that all of us remember discussions about overgunned Beaufigtera two or three years ago.
We have two eras now - early and late war. For Mk.V and Fw.190A we just must wait. It is much better to continue with late war P-38 and close eyes in case of Me.410 than start the third part of war with just two series belongs to the late era. What do you think?

[Dan-Sam]

I have to completely agree with both of you regarding the Ki-45, FW190A and Spit V. Glaring ommissions.

Also I really hope Ares stop the 2 well known 1 less known release scheme. The lesser known schemes should be left for painters to paint themselves if they must, it certainly won't win many new fans to the game if any.

I love my Norwegian Gladiator

[Canestri10]

I love my Norwegian Gladiator

You would definitely be in the minority especially amongst potential new players. Ares are cutting a huge chunk of their own sales by releasing one hardly known mini.

[Nightbomber]

You would definitely be in the minority especially amongst potential new players. Ares are cutting a huge chunk of their own sales by releasing one hardly known mini.

Could not agree more. It is a kind of unusual and happy coincidence that we did not get a P-51 Mustang of Malaysian Air Force.

[Nightbomber]

By the way, did you try to play with Fw.190A? We played it two weeks ago - with cannons it is a same butcher as Beaufighter... And I am sure that all of us remember discussions about overgunned Beaufigtera two or three years ago.
We have two eras now - early and late war. For Mk.V and Fw.190A we just must wait. It is much better to continue with late war P-38 and close eyes in case of Me.410 than start the third part of war with just two series belongs to the late era. What do you think?

Well, at least we have no choice, for it's up to Ares to decide. But I won't change my mind: WGS without these two planes will not be complete.
As to the Butcher Bird. Different cards with different armament would tweak the power of it.
But I also think the C and D damage tokens need to be re-thought or the shooting system should be redone in a way.
It is a fresh idea, no details, but or D counters bear too big numbers on them or some lower numbers or even zeroes should be added.
I usually play with two sets, so it is not that bad like with just one.
Beaus...well I remember a game during which I was shooting at a sea target from a short distance and the victim drew ALL zeroes, except 1 B damage or so. That's life!

[Tonx]

I love my Norwegian Gladiator

So do I. Krohn was the first WGS I ever owned but I struggled to deploy this aircraft until I won my first Messerschmitt Bf.109E in a snooker match around five months later.

Recently Carl Brisgamer drew our attention to a scenario where Norwegian Gladiator(s) can be deployed effectively against quite a hefty opposition. The Krohn Gladiator was based at Fornebu which spent ages as Oslo's main airport FBU until superseded by Gardemoen. FBU is still in use though.

Very very interesting survey answers so far - thanks to everyone who has responded

[Dan-Sam]

You would definitely be in the minority especially amongst potential new players. Ares are cutting a huge chunk of their own sales by releasing one hardly known mini.

Of course I am in the minority with Krohn. But still it is not as painfull as (for example) desert Spitfire. Do you remember those blue edges? I know you remember. Everyone remember it. Or different letters on sides on Canadian one? Edges of colours on a Mediterranian B-25? IMHO much bigger problem then Me.410, which is simply the tax for P-38. And P-38 is in the same box as Mustang and Thunderbolt. So, personaly, I have not a problem with Me.410 or Lancaster (I know, I know, no need to repeat), but do not underestimate the manufacturing process and mini's quality

[Dan-Sam]

Could not agree more. It is a kind of unusual and happy coincidence that we did not get a P-51 Mustang of Malaysian Air Force.

Malaysian Air force did not use Mustangs. What about Indonesian Air Force?

indonesian-p-51-mustang-team.jpg

[Tonx]

Malaysian Air force did not use Mustangs.

That's exactly what I thought ... That picture definitely shows Indonesian marked and flagged aircraft including the Tupolev Tu-102A Bison bombers in the background.

[Marechallannes]

...
It is a fresh idea, no details, but or D counters bear too big numbers on them or some lower numbers or even zeroes should be added.
...

By the way a WGS D damage set has 40% Zero Counters.

[Marechallannes]

... What do you think?

I like the focus on late war planes for Pacific and Europe.

[Canestri10]

Yes thank goodness we didn't see an Indonesian Mustang.

[Canestri10]

Of course I am in the minority with Krohn. But still it is not as painfull as (for example) desert Spitfire. Do you remember those blue edges? I know you remember. Everyone remember it. Or different letters on sides on Canadian one? Edges of colours on a Mediterranian B-25? IMHO much bigger problem then Me.410, which is simply the tax for P-38. And P-38 is in the same box as Mustang and Thunderbolt. So, personaly, I have not a problem with Me.410 or Lancaster (I know, I know, no need to repeat), but do not underestimate the manufacturing process and mini's quality

I'm not sure I understand your point, even if the Desert Spit was some lesser known paint scheme it still would have had those blue edges which would have made even more undesirable than a well known paint scheme. The well known paint schemes need to be priority so the new fans can feel like they have more diversity yet stay within the boundaries of what they know and love.

[Diamondback]

Yes thank goodness we didn't see an Indonesian Mustang.

Damn well BETTER NOT, Indonesia didn't exist as a nation during WWII and would have provoked a screaming hissy-fit from me that made my reaction to Ares proposing a Ship That Never Was for Sails Wave 2 look like a tempest in a teapot by comparison!

[Dan-Sam]

I'm not sure I understand your point, even if the Desert Spit was some lesser known paint scheme it still would have had those blue edges which would have made even more undesirable than a well known paint scheme. The well known paint schemes need to be priority so the new fans can feel like they have more diversity yet stay within the boundaries of what they know and love.

Point is not in camouflage - we needed Allied desert plane, but in damn blue edges. From our Prague group, nobody (as I know) bought it neco use it looks silly. Not because desert camo, but because the wings and tails with blue stripes looks terrible. For me, much bigger problem then French SBD.

[Canestri10]

Well thats where my point comes in. If you gave the choice to a new comer in the game I'm sure an overwhleming majority would choose the Spit with blue edges over a French SBD they probably didn't even know existed. Heck I knew they existed yet I would take the blue edged Spit every day of the week. Maybe within our small groups who know everything about the War the neiche little planes are attractive but for your average Joe they wouldn't look twice at them.

[Dan-Sam]

My preferences would be in French SBD (ask Monse about using them in war - quite interesting!), I am not a newbie, so I can't tell what they prefer.

[AlgyLacey]

I like the focus on late war planes for Pacific and Europe.

I have to disagree, the late war types make for a very quick game of a single firing pass. I can count the outings my Spit IX, 190 and Mustang have had on one hand because they just aren't much fun. Not compared to the BoB scenarios I've played at cons with Boney et al.

Early war is just plain (plane?) better.

Reprint the Spit 1&2, Hurris, 109e, etc

[Nightbomber]

Point is not in camouflage - we needed Allied desert plane, but in damn blue edges. From our Prague group, nobody (as I know) bought it neco use it looks silly. Not because desert camo, but because the wings and tails with blue stripes looks terrible. For me, much bigger problem then French SBD.

I must assure you old friend, from a table top distance with a group of devoted players - those minor issues have no impact on PLAY!.
Have a look at one of our game evenings please...







But of course I am biased toward this beautiful plane. Polish Spitfire of Skalski Circus - I simply love it and have several of them!

[Nightbomber]

And I am afraid you will be even more dissapointed with the new Bf 109 so called "K" sculpts...I hope to be wrong...

[Nightbomber]

I have to disagree, the late war types make for a very quick game of a single firing pass. I can count the outings my Spit IX, 190 and Mustang have had on one hand because they just aren't much fun. Not compared to the BoB scenarios I've played at cons with Boney et al.

Early war is just plain (plane?) better.

Reprint the Spit 1&2, Hurris, 109e, etc

This is true. Well, I love the early war planes so much... had to fill the gap with AIM and Shapeways products...

[Skippy]

Before we go toward transport aircraft we need to explore other nations aircraft.

For example, the computer game "War Thunder" has just devoted a patch to the"Italian Air Force".

We need to develop this direction first.

We need to go global to attract other players.

[Tristan]

I would like to say yes to transport aircraft but thinking about it some more. . They would be just mission objectives, and even then you be limits to theatres.
Ju52 early med and Russian front
C47 late western Europe

The larger bombers already serve as mission objectives, but ones that can fire back.