Sails of Glory, do you plan on playing?

[Timmo UK]

I'm thinking that the initial releases will be more aimed at frigate actions than fleet actions. I'm intrigued to see how the system will manage fleet actions; I have a mental image of trying to play WoW and controlling 20-30 aircraft at the same time - not easy at all! So perhaps a fleet action would be managed by using manoeuvre cards at the squadron level? That would work well, and would encourage players to manoeuvre their fleets as their historical forebears would have done.

Funny, I thought the opposite and felt it would be the fleet actions they would go for with the initial release as pretty much everyone has heard of Nelson and the Battle of Trafalgar in the way that everybody has heard of the Red Baron. I imagine Victory and Constitution being the iconic models of the Series, like the Red Baron is but the big colourful Spanish first rate ships being the 'stars'. I wonder if the first release for the Brits might focus on Nelson's ships eg, Victory 100, Captain 74, Agamemnon 64 etc.

Then again the US is a big market so Constitution is an important model. It might be that we get three frigates, three 64's three 74's and three first rate 100+ to start off. Either way I can't wait to see the images of the first decorated examples and hope they use clear bases but slimmer than those used for WoG.

[Oberst Hajj]

We Know that the Victory will not be one of the very first releases.

[Timmo UK]

We Know that the Victory will not be one of the very first releases.

Ah I can't have read the press release info very well! Anyway that's got me really interested to see which way they take this game.

[greenalfonzo]

Considering the designers, they'll probably follow the WOW release sequence. I'm guessing they'll start with a starter set featuring frigates with rules for ship to ship combat, and follow that with later box sets featuring larger ships and additional rules for fleet and other actions.

[David Manley]

Here's my latest thoughts. The starter set will cover frigate actions. Why do I think this?

1) We know that the starter set will comprise 4 models and rules, cards etc. Two-on-two ship of the line actions are as rare as hen's teeth, and not particularly interesting. Frigate actions are way, way more exciting

2) The starter set will not technically cover the Napoleonic Wars. Next year is 2012, the 200th anniversary of the outbreak of War of 1812. What better way to launch a naval minis game than by tying in with the bicentenary? If that is the case then I'd expect the models to be HMS Shannon, USS Chesapeake, USS Constitution and HMS Guerriere . This ticks a lot of boxes for a launch product - fun setting, historical example, US features heavily = will sell like hot cakes.

To be honest, if Ares aren't doing this then someone in marketing needs to be shot!

[Timmo UK]

Here's my latest thoughts. The starter set will cover frigate actions. Why do I think this?

1) We know that the starter set will comprise 4 models and rules, cards etc. Two-on-two ship of the line actions are as rare as hen's teeth, and not particularly interesting. Frigate actions are way, way more exciting

2) The starter set will not technically cover the Napoleonic Wars. Next year is 2012, the 200th anniversary of the outbreak of War of 1812. What better way to launch a naval minis game than by tying in with the bicentenary? If that is the case then I'd expect the models to be HMS Shannon, USS Chesapeake, USS Constitution and HMS Guerriere . This ticks a lot of boxes for a launch product - fun setting, historical example, US features heavily = will sell like hot cakes.

To be honest, if Ares aren't doing this then someone in marketing needs to be shot!

I'd buy that as a boxed set. Your reasoning makes sense to me.

[Ed2]

[QUOTE To be honest, if Ares aren't doing this then someone in marketing needs to be shot![/QUOTE]

Save your shooting for the game. I'm just glad they're producing SoW.

[greenalfonzo]

Some people who read about a game set in the Napoleonic era might expect something related to Napoleon in the first set....so what are the chances the first set features a frigate from each of the England, France, Spain, and the U.S.? Or do you really think they'll either wait for a second or third box before getting around to do France and Spain? Or maybe just release French and Spanish frigates in single ship packaging?

[David Manley]

Or do you really think they'll either wait for a second or third box before getting around to do France and Spain?

No, probably amongst the first release of individual ships (assuming my theory is correct )

[Timmo UK]

So where do they go after frigates? Down to brigs, sloops, schooners, gunboats and merchantmen? Or jump up to the 74's which are the ones which might just be the biggest seller.

[David Manley]

So where do they go after frigates? Down to brigs, sloops, schooners, gunboats and merchantmen? Or jump up to the 74's which are the ones which might just be the biggest seller.

Depends on how the system works. |If it copes well with fleet actions then I think you answered your own question. Merchies would be worth doing early though - convoy actions etc.

[Boney10]

Surely a pre-painted 64 or 70+ SOL will be quite an expensive model to be put into a box set, Im putting in context of the bombers/balloons here.
The frigate actions will surely be the starter sets with four ships in without breaking the bank balances. I am looking forward to this set but am wondering what the cost will be for the bigger ships. Dave has already mentioned actions between 1 or 2 SOL were rare so for a reasonable action we are looking at say 3 to 6 a side which could be expensive

[greenalfonzo]

Could someone post up some pics of 1200 scale ships to show us the relative size and detail of what we will possibly be getting? Something with some scale in the pic, like a ruler, a coffee mug, or a WOW plane!

[Ed2]

Could someone post up some pics of 1200 scale ships to show us the relative size and detail of what we will possibly be getting? Something with some scale in the pic, like a ruler, a coffee mug, or a WOW plane!

Russian Napoleonic, 100 gun Rotislav - 74 gun Aleksandr Nevski - 66 gun Rodislav
Base of the 100 gun is 40mm x 84mm
Base of the 74 & 66 gun is 40mm x 74mm

http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/...2/100_0631.jpg

http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/...100_0630-1.jpg

[David Manley]

How about these for a comparison? From right to left a 100, 74, 32 and two unrated vessels in shot with a Nieuport for scale:



Same models, just moved around abit:



The ships are all 1/1200 models from Rod Langton

[greenalfonzo]

Thank you, Ed and David!

Those are very helpful. I'm thinking that they'll be priced in the "2 seater" range per individual ship.

Beautiful ships guys, I will not be able to pass them up if SOG's ships are in this class of finish! I can already imagine these sailing around my table.

[Oberst Hajj]

Thanks Dave, that really helps get a perspective on these ships.

One thing to keep in mind about the boxed sets. While 1-2 SoL engagements were rare in real life, that might be overlooked for starting a new game out. Most players are going to want SoL, so having 4 of those in the start box to "jump start" your fleet, might not be a bad idea for them business wise.

[Timmo UK]

Going back to WS&IM for a moment although we played all the fleet games, Nile, Trafalgar, etc they were big games that took a weekend due to all the tedious order writing which was one of the weak points in the system, the other being the poor boarding rules, however the rules excelled at small ship actions.

I have a Avalon Hill General magazine with a load of Richard Bolitho scenarios based on the books with the same character and these had all types of cutting out actions, frigates v's frigates etc and these provided for many, many enjoyable fast paced games.

Although I love the look of the SOL the frigate games are far more accessible from a price perspective. I'm not sure why a SOL would be any more expensive to produce than a frigate. Material cost on something so small is minimal and the rigging is essentially the same, as is the design of the ship, ie three masts etc. The only thing I could see effecting price is the need for a larger tooling and bigger packing and thus increased distribution costs. I doubt a WoG 2 seater costs more than a few pence/cents more than a scout to produce but the marketing people set a price point…

I am interested to see how and if they handle rigging and masts. Somebody mentioned plug in/out masts to show damage which is a nice idea but any rigging would prevent this. However, I can't help but feel that sailing vessels need at least a hint of rigging or else they can look very bare and unfinished. Equally though I've seen so many models lost under far too much rigging that's way overscale.

[Oberst Hajj]

I've never played any of the naval games out there and I know very little about naval history, but... why do you have to play entire fleet battles/actions if you use SOL? Could a few SOL per side not indicated a smaller section of a much broader engagement?

[Jager]

From what I remember from that wargaming phase (my copy of WSIM is in the attic, on the top shelf), it was mostly a doctrine thing, with a little performance added. Basically, SOL were rather slower, and less weldy than frigate, so if they operated solo or in pairs, they were not as effective as a line of them, and a well handled frigate could concevably manuver to repeatedly rack fire down the bows or sterns of the SOL, avoiding the broadsides themselves. This plus the doctrine that the line must not be broken (note that Nelson violated this with great sucess) and their hugh expense meant that practically speaking, they were almost always used aginst other SOLs; occationally for convoy escort. I think that the British blockade squadrons during the Naponeanic wars were 4-8 SOLs, with escorts.
The French weren't as hung up on this, and had better designed ships (in general), but were less able to operste, due to the blockades. You will find 1-1 ans 2-2 SOL combats in history, but their rare.
Karl

[Timmo UK]

You could fight small games of 4 – 6 SOL against each other. We often did and they were good fun games but it never really felt as if the game captured the real essence of fleet actions of the period.

The Nile with 12 - 14 SOL a side was another matter and a cracking scenario.

[georgerutherfor]

For those fans of Aubrey-Maturin, at the end of Master and Commander there is a recounting of two smaller SOL fights, each with only 4-6 SOL a side (going off of memory here), that occurred in real life. Cracking fights they were too. Not exactly numerous as one would say, but then again large fleet on fleet actions didn't happen every day either. I would love the for the rules to include some way to do cutting out expeditions, those to me seem like a great deal of fun, as well as also being fairly common with smaller rated and unrated ships.

Doug

[David Manley]

From what I remember from that wargaming phase (my copy of WSIM is in the attic, on the top shelf), it was mostly a doctrine thing, with a little performance added. Basically, SOL were rather slower, and less weldy than frigate, so if they operated solo or in pairs, they were not as effective as a line of them, and a well handled frigate could concevably manuver to repeatedly rack fire down the bows or sterns of the SOL, avoiding the broadsides themselves.

Thats not right. The line of battle evolved for several reasons, but primarily:

a) command & control - the "mob" approach to naval tactics in the early part of the Dutch wars game admirals almost no control over their fleets; linear deployments were far easier to control)

b) maximising firepower - operating in line minimised the opportunity for friendly ships to block the line of fire. There was no advanced fire control in the age of sail (after the first broadside the din of battle meant this was not possible on a crowded gun deck) and in general the closest atrget would be engaged, so if a friendly vessel was closer than an enemy the options were to hold fire, or fire on a friend;

c) protecting the bows and stern - but protection against other ships of the line, rather than frigates. 5th and 6th rates were not a real threat for ships of the line unless they were at a serious disadvantage (e.g. dismasted, grounded or limited by severe weather such as Pellew's action against the Droits de l'Homme, where 4 frigates eventually took down a French 74 which coiuldn't use its lower gun decks due to the high sea state). In fact, there were often "gentlemen's agreements" in fleet actions that SoLs would not fire on frigates as long as the small fry left the bigger ships alone. In one action (I forget which) a frigate captain decided to "have a go" and was rewarded for his gutsy move with a broadside from the SoL he had fired at, and that broadside completely dismasted the frigate and shattered the hull. Yes, frigates were often (but not always) more handy than SoLs, but not to the point where they had any kind of advantage over them.

This plus the doctrine that the line must not be broken (note that Nelson violated this with great sucess)

Nelson violated this because he KNEW that his ships and crews outclassed the enemy. Had he been fighting the French navy from several years previously he would never have attempted the manoeuvres he did. Likewise Duncan at Kemperduin. Against an enemy of comparable overall fighting quality the line should be able to shoot an oncoming fleet into submission before the oncming ships reach the line.

[David Manley]

For those fans of Aubrey-Maturin, at the end of Master and Commander there is a recounting of two smaller SOL fights, each with only 4-6 SOL a side (going off of memory here), that occurred in real life.

IIRC these (or at least one of these - I admit I've not got as far through Patrick O'Brien's books by now as I should have done) were based on the battles in and around Algeceiras in 1801. Cracking battles, and about the smallest decent SoL battles you can find. I've used them as the basis for a few demonstration and participation games at shows over the years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Algeciras_Bay

[georgerutherfor]

David,

You're entirely right about the Battle of Algeciras - I could not remember the name of it.

Doug

[BobP]

Looks like something else to spend money on. Have to pull out my Great Naval Battles book to get some battles together.

[Zakopious]

Will the sails of Glory ships be the same size as the Pirates of the Spanish Main ships ?

See: http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/1...e-spanish-main

[CappyTom]

Will the sails of Glory ships be the same size as the Pirates of the Spanish Main ships ?

See: http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/1...e-spanish-main

I have a ton of those ships. Love the game and made house rules as to role-playing. We even had newspapers of each nation. They would tell of their great fleets victories.

Tom

[DaveZee]

I used to love the Pirates game by Wizkids that used card stock boats. I cannot wait for this game.

[David Manley]

I don't really feel as if the design of the kits allows for different settings to be plugged into one hull model.

Definitely not. They should be permanently fixed.

[Walt Powell]

Nautical terms that affected the english language.

Here's the first of four installments covering 21 (to name a few) nautical terms that have slipped into the english language in various forms:

1.) Burning your boats: To leave no alternative; used since Roman times when destroying troop transport ships gave recently landed soldiers no chioce but to stay and fight.
2.) by and large: Describing both good and bad sailing conditions: bad headwinds required sailing "by" the wind; favorable wind allowed use of the "large" sails, resulting in greater speed.
3.) chew the fat: To talk endlessly; from the fact that shipboard preservatives hardened meat, forcing sailors to chew it thoroughly.
4.) chock-a-block: Full to capacity; from the condition of two nautical pulleys, or "blocks" that are "chocked", or pulled as tight as possible.
5.) chowder: A seafood soup; from the French chaudiere, or cauldron.
6.) The coast is clear: Safe to proceed; applied to vessels having "cleared" the hazards of a dangerous passage.

More fun later! ---Walt

[csadn]

The truly-relevant question is: Who's going to be first to combine _WoG_ and _SoG_ in a game?

Yes, yes -- I know they're different eras; but when has *that* ever stopped anyone? :)

[Gaz67]

Every wargamer I've spoken to in the last few weeks have expressed a huge interest in "Sails", the one question that they all ask is "How much will the ships cost??"
If they are priced reasonably then this has the potential to be huge.

[Boney10]

Hmmm THat being the case Doug think Ill have a go at them myself. The last Naval books I read were the CS forrester Hornblower series

[Ed2]

Speaking of Hornblower, has anyone watched the eight episode TV series Horatio Hornblower?

[Walt Powell]

Speaking of Hornblower, has anyone watched the eight episode TV series Horatio Hornblower?

Just purchased and watched Episodes 1& 2. Cost just $10.00 US through Barnes and Noble. Very well done. Can't wait to get the other 6.
'

[Zakopious]

Treasure Island is a good read about sailing, pirates, etc.

It can be read online for free here:

http://openlibrary.org/books/OL7041966M/Treasure_Island.

[Bigman]

hmm have come to this a bit late being tied up with lots of real world stuff but for what its worth I have had very little time to game of late ( my last post here was in Feb or March). I have still lots of WW2 plane I want to get plus I have to get a replacement famous aces set as I gave mine to a friend, and find time to play.
In summarry I don't have the time space or money for a new game let alone one that would be a completly new area for me to get involved in.
So whens it coming out? somebody put me down for one now! I'm already looking for a nice admirals hat!

Guess I'll never learn!

[Snowy]

Guess I will put my two cents in. I am guessing (at best) that for the first series they will look for Classes of ships that come in threes, such as some of the 74's. Another thought is that Constitution, Constellation and the United States were all very similar. I think the Shannon was of a class of Frigate that was popular. I am sure with a little research you could come up with the same thing for France, Spain and others. 4 ship types in 3 paint schemes. Sound familiar?
This will minimise multiple model developement and get ships out there quicker.

Just a thought....

[csadn]

Another thought is that Constitution, Constellation and the United States were all very similar.

They came from the same designer/builder, Joshua Humphreys -- however, the first two were 44-gun hulls, while the last was a 38 (before the obligatory upgunning US captains were so fond of...).

I think the Shannon was of a class of Frigate that was popular.[/QUOTE]

http://www.hms-trincomalee.co.uk/historic/leda/leda.htm -- _Leda_-class, copied from a captured French design.

[Ed2]

I hope they initially concentrate on British, French & Spanish SOL's of the Trafalgar era.
And I really hope they will find an economical way to add ship cards.

[csadn]

I hope they initially concentrate on British, French & Spanish SOL's of the Trafalgar era.

They don't really have a choice -- none of the other navies of the period really factored into the conflict. IIRC, the Dutch Navy was absorbed by the French (with attendant consequences); the Scandinavians never really got involved in the fighting (and the one time they did -- well, look up "Battle of Copenhagen 1801"), the Russians were never anything more than a local power (if that), and the various Med nations were absorbed by either Britain or France. So, in that period, one is either British, or "Combined Fleet" (French and Spanish).

And you thought the WoW WW1 selections were limited....

[Ed2]

[QUOTE And you thought the WoW WW1 selections were limited....[/QUOTE]

With ship sizes and types ranging from the Agamemnon to the Santisima Trinidad, that should give me many hours of fun on the high seas.

[wargamer]

They don't really have a choice -- none of the other navies of the period really factored into the conflict. IIRC, the Dutch Navy was absorbed by the French (with attendant consequences); the Scandinavians never really got involved in the fighting (and the one time they did -- well, look up "Battle of Copenhagen 1801"), the Russians were never anything more than a local power (if that), and the various Med nations were absorbed by either Britain or France. So, in that period, one is either British, or "Combined Fleet" (French and Spanish).

And you thought the WoW WW1 selections were limited....

And you always have the pirates of the med... the moorish problem, (u thot the muslims were just a modern problem - look up lapanto) the problem the Constitution and her sisters were designed to stomp on. btw, Constitution launched 1797, Battle of Trafalgar was 1805? Naval operations are where you find them... and small units will be cheaper than SoLs....

[Walt Powell]

Guess I will put my two cents in. I am guessing (at best) that for the first series they will look for Classes of ships that come in threes, such as some of the 74's. Another thought is that Constitution, Constellation and the United States were all very similar. I think the Shannon was of a class of Frigate that was popular. I am sure with a little research you could come up with the same thing for France, Spain and others. 4 ship types in 3 paint schemes. Sound familiar?
This will minimise multiple model developement and get ships out there quicker.

Just a thought....

I'm not even sure that it would be that important to put "names" on all the ships. Unlike WW1 aircraft, their wasn't that much individualism amongst classes of ship (at least nOT that you would notice at 1/1200th). They could concentrate on classes, allowing more to our imagination as far as how ships were "named" or used. This will also allow for "captured" ships to change flags.

[David Manley]

They don't really have a choice -- none of the other navies of the period really factored into the conflict. IIRC, the Dutch Navy was absorbed by the French (with attendant consequences); the Scandinavians never really got involved in the fighting (and the one time they did -- well, look up "Battle of Copenhagen 1801"), the Russians were never anything more than a local power (if that), and the various Med nations were absorbed by either Britain or France. So, in that period, one is either British, or "Combined Fleet" (French and Spanish).

Let me see, the RN, French and Spanish navies. Check. Now there was also the United States Navy and a little thing called the War of 1812.The Swedes and the Russians fought many fleet actions during the period, but also fought some amazing littoral actions in amongst the "archipelagos" of the Baltic, with some wierd and wonderful types of ships. The Dutch and Danish may have fought on the side of the French, but their fleets were generally distinct rather than being "absorbed", and they fought some interetsing actions against the British and others (Kamperduin, and Copenhagen being the most obvious). In the Med there were various navies belonging to the Italian republics (Venice and Naples primarily, the former having ships at the frigate battle of Lissa in 1811). And the Ottoman Empire had a sizeable fleet as well - plenty of potentyial for a Russian / Turkish dust up in the Black Sea or, if you are into solo actions (or are a masochist with a thing for the Ottomans), try refighting the battle of Navarinio (1821).

So there are plently of non anglo/spano/French opportunities and the bonus is that, with the exception of "rivet counters" (for which I admit I do have tendencies) a frigate is a frigate, and a 74 is a 74, so you can chop and change ships as you want between nations. And in any case, ships captured in battle were frequently put into service by their new owners, or (in the case of the RN, at least) copied and built in some numbers. The RN's "Leda" class for example was a copy of a French frigate, and if you are in or visiting the UK you can visit two examples, one in Dundee (HMS UNICORN) and one in Hartlepool (HMS TRINCOMALEE).



A piccie of Trincomalee that I took on my first visit - a very rainy day in November - and which I later posted on Wikipedia

[Walt Powell]

Let me see, the RN, French and Spanish navies. Check. Now there was also the United States Navy and a little thing called the War of 1812.The Swedes and the Russians fought many fleet actions during the period, but also fought some amazing littoral actions in amongst the "archipelagos" of the Baltic, with some wierd and wonderful types of ships. The Dutch and Danish may have fought on the side of the French, but their fleets were generally distinct rather than being "absorbed", and they fought some interetsing actions against the British and others (Kamperduin, and Copenhagen being the most obvious). In the Med there were various navies belonging to the Italian republics (Venice and Naples primarily, the former having ships at the frigate battle of Lissa in 1811). And the Ottoman Empire had a sizeable fleet as well - plenty of potentyial for a Russian / Turkish dust up in the Black Sea or, if you are into solo actions (or are a masochist with a thing for the Ottomans), try refighting the battle of Navarinio (1821).

So there are plently of non anglo/spano/French opportunities and the bonus is that, with the exception of "rivet counters" (for which I admit I do have tendencies) a frigate is a frigate, and a 74 is a 74, so you can chop and change ships as you want between nations. And in any case, ships captured in battle were frequently put into service by their new owners, or (in the case of the RN, at least) copied and built in some numbers. The RN's "Leda" class for example was a copy of a French frigate, and if you are in or visiting the UK you can visit two examples, one in Dundee (HMS UNICORN) and one in Hartlepool (HMS TRINCOMALEE).



A piccie of Trincomalee that I took on my first visit - a very rainy day in November - and which I later posted on Wikipedia

Interchangeable......what he said.

[Gaz67]

BOMB KETCH!!!!

[csadn]

wargamer, and David Manley: Those are all nice selections -- but none of them fall under "Trafalgar-era ships-of-the-line", with the possible exception of Copenhagen.

This illustrates the problem _SoG_ is going to face: Do they go with the "known" battles, and have to fight for shelf space with every other age-of-sail game on the planet; or do they go with the lesser-known battles, and deal with the constant whining about how "no one is interested in the [fill-in-the-blank-minor-power]"? Never mind the game-balance issue -- notice how every battle is won by the British; who's going to want to play the French and Spanish, knowing he's going to get squashed?

[Ed2]

[QUOTE= notice how every battle is won by the British; who's going to want to play the French and Spanish, knowing he's going to get squashed?[/QUOTE]

But think of the Glory if you win.