Airship Attack! — Presenting the LZ41 (L-11)

[Lugburz]

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Hello everyone!

I want to share with you my management card design for the Zeppelin LZ41 (L11) — a 'Type P' German airship which was operational from June 15th 1915, until it was decommissioned on August 5th 1917. The crew of the L11 endured one of the longest careers of any German airship in WWI. Operational roles included: naval scout, high altitude bomber, English raider, and finally as an airship trainer.

Before I jump into the cards, their mechanics, and what they look like — let me share with you some of the information I found about the LZ41, as it helps to understand some of the decisions behind why the cards look the way they do.

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Zeppelin LZ41 (L-11) Stats

• Length: 536.4 FT
• Diameter: 61.35 FT
• Gas Capacity: 1,126,700 FT — contained throughout 16 gas cells
• Engines: Total of 4 = Maybach C-X engines; 210HP each.
• Max speed: 57.7 MPH (endurance = 2,700 miles)
• Ceiling: 10,500 FT
• Crew: 16-18 (including officers)
• Guns: Total of 8 = Spandau MG08 / MG14 parabellum (Water-cooling preferred)

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Now that we have that out of the way, let's get to the cards!

Lo-fi and Hi-fi versions of the cards (in their current state) can be found HERE.

Zeppelin appropriate crew / engine / and wound tokens may be found at the link shown above (PSD or TIF format)





In order to provide a sense of scale, each management card has been designed for a 300 dpi document measuring 8.5"x11". There is a half-inch border left around each card to allow for printer margins (and possible lamination). Each of the round "token" areas you see have been scaled to fit the standard Wings of War tokens provided in each of the base games. Token icons represents one of two things:

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GREEN Numbers & Lines = Alternate Crew Position (see crew movement in the "Pilot/Mechanic" rules section below)


RED Numbers & Lines = Crew-member Position + Duty

• = Machine Gunner
• = Pilot
• = Pilot/Mechanic
• = Mechanic only

BLUE Numbers & Lines = Special Airship Damage

• = Tracking Engine Damage
• = Tracking Gas Cell Damage

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Basic Card Stats

• Movement Deck: XD (optional)
• Damage: 128 (subject to change)
• Engine Count: 4
• Gun Damage: "B" Deck (single barrel MG's)

L-11 Crew Roster (version 3)

• Top Hull: 3 Machine Gunners (foreward); 1 Machine Gunner (tail)
• Forward Nacelle: 2 Machine Gunners; 1 Pilot; 2 Pilot/Mechanics (only 1 capable of moving between nacelles, once per turn)
• Aft Nacelle: 2 Machine Gunners; 2 Pilot/Mechanics (static — does not move between nacelles); 1 Mechanic (static — does not move between nacelles)
• Internal: 2 Mechanics (unable to fulfill pilot role — must be used only to repair gas cells)

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Win Conditions

• Deplete the Zeppelin's total strength (128)
• Destroy 3 out of 4 gas zones (each zone has been color coded for easy distinction)
• Kill all of the pilots (5 total)
• Destroy all of the engines (4 total)
• Zeppelin climbs to safety (optional scenario)

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Rules for play (borrowed and modified from "Flight of The Giants")

The crew is formed of pilots, gunners, and mechanics. When looking at the Zeppelin management card you can see immediately which role a crewman has by the symbol in the role circle linked to his number. The reason for Pilot/Mechanics (instead of just Mechanics), is that they probably know enough about the inner-workings of the Zeppelin, especially the engines, to sustain flight even if the captain is wounded/incapacitated/killed. See the rules below in reference to multifaceted pilots and their roles.

Determining Who/What Takes Damage

Crew
Take as many wounded crewman tokens with consecutive numbers starting from “1” as there are crew positions on your zeppelin and place them face-down on the table. When the zeppelin suffers “Crew Wounded” special damage, the player draws one of the crewman tokens at random and reveals it: the matching crew position is silenced and cannot perform special duties (ie. Fire machine gun / repair engines). Pilots can take two such wounds before they are incapacitated (Flight of The Giants, page 6).


Gas Cells
Take as many gas cell tokens with consecutive numbers starting from “1” as there are gas cells on your zeppelin and place them face-down on the table. When the zeppelin suffers “Smoke / Fire” special damage, the player draws one of the gas cell tokens at random and reveals it: the matching gas cell is on fire. Please refer to the “Gas Cell” rule section for more details (Flight of The Giants, page 6).

Special Damage

• Explosions / Fire / Smoke: Please refer to the rules outlined in the "Gas Cells" section.
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• Jammed Guns: Due to their stable firing platform, Zeppelin gunners ignore all red jam cards.
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• Rudder Jammed: Applicable only if "movement" rules are in use, otherwise disregard. If movement rules are in play, resolve rudder jams as you would with a normal plane.
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• Engine Damaged: Please refer to the rules outlined in the "Mechanics" section.
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• Crew Wounded: Please refer to the rules outlined in the "Pilots" section.

Pilots

Pilots are wounded with no effect to their maneuvering abilities the first time that they are hit and are incapacitated the second time that they are hit. A pilot will have one casualty marker placed on his role circle the first time he is hit and a second casualty marker placed on his role circle the second time he is hit, which causes him to become incapacitated. However, when a pilot with a Mechanics Skill suffers his first hit, his ability to repair is silenced (even though his maneuvering ability is unaffected). A plane with all its pilots incapacitated is shot down. (Flight of The Giants, page 10)

Pilot/Mechanics

The Zeppelin LZ41 has FOUR Pilot/Mechanics who can try to repair the engines if the engines become damaged. These Pilot/Mechanics start each game in their primary start position (labeled in red), and if an engine is hit, the Pilot/Mechanic can attempt to repair any damage engine located in their own nacelle. However, when a pilot with a Mechanics Skill suffers his first hit, his ability to repair is silenced (even though his maneuvering ability is unaffected).

If there is a Pilot/Mechanic capable of movement (position #5), place the crew movement token on the role circle for positions identified in green. After each movement phase, before starting to resolve any fire, the owner of the Zeppelin can declare that an eligible Pilot/Mechanic is switching positions. Take the crew movement token and move it to whichever location the crewman is leaving. The moving Pilot/Mechanic cannot repair any engines at this time.

After each movement phase, the owner can decide that the Pilot/Mechanic reaches one of his two possible positions: either at the Front Nacelle (place the crew movement token on the role circle for the position identified by the red number) or the Rear Nacelle (place the crew movement token on the role circle for the position identified by the green circle). A Pilot/Mechanic cannot repair his engine on the phase he reaches his new position, but he can attempt to fix it on the phase AFTER the one in which he reached the new location.

If the Pilot/Mechanic spends a whole turn at the engines (in the nacelle he occupies), he can try to repair damage to one of them. At the end of the turn, after any fi re is resolved, draw a “B” damage card. If the result is “0” or an explosion, the damage is permanent and cannot be repaired and you can flip the engine damage token facedown to point it out; if the result is “1” or more, the damage is repaired. If the damage is repaired, you can remove one engine damage token. Each Pilot/Mechanic can try to repair damage on his own nacelle only. He can try only once for each engine damage, and for no more than one damage each turn. (modified from the "Zeppelin Staaken mechanic/gunner rules featured in Flight of The Giants, page 13)

Mechanics Only

Mechanics (shown without a pilot icon) are STATIC crew members that may not move or fulfill the role of pilot. If all pilots have been incapacitated, and there are mechanics still alive aboard the zeppelin, the airship is considered to have been shot down. If the Mechanic spends a whole turn at the engines (in the nacelle he occupies), he can try to repair damage to one of them. At the end of the turn, after any fi re is resolved, draw a “B” damage card. If the result is “0” or an explosion, the damage is permanent and cannot be repaired and you can flip the engine damage token facedown to point it out; if the result is “1” or more, the damage is repaired. If the damage is repaired, you can remove one engine damage token. Each Mechanic can try to repair damage on his own nacelle only. He can try only once for each engine damage, and for no more than one damage each turn. (modified from the "Zeppelin Staaken mechanic/gunner rules" featured in Flight of The Giants, page 13 & 14)

Mechanics which are shown occupying the internal portions of the airship (see second, horizontal, management card) may only be used to repair damaged gas cells. All cells are accessible by these two particular mechanics, thus movement tokens are unnecessary. If the Mechanic spends a whole turn at the gas cell, he can try to repair the damage done to it. At the end of the turn, after any fire is resolved, draw a “B” damage card. If the result is “0” or an explosion, the damage is permanent and cannot be repaired; if the result is “1” or more, the damage is repaired. If the damage is repaired, you can remove the corresponding token from the gas cell damage track. He can try only once for each gas cell, and for no more than one cell each turn. If an explosion card was drawn during the repair test, adjacent cells automatically catch fire.

Machine Gunners

When a crewman is wounded, the player places a casualty marker in the role circle on the airplane management card that corresponds to the number on the wounded crewman token that was drawn. The machine gun that crewman operated can no longer be fired. When a gunner is hit the first time, he’s incapacitated and his machine gun is silenced. On top of the Zeppelin, and in each of the nacelles, there are multiple gunners that firing anywhere from 2-3 machine guns. In the event that one of these gunners is eliminated, his machine gun can be used by the other gunners at his location. Place a casualty marker on the role circle for the position occupied by the eliminated crewman. If the player wants the remaining gunner(s) to fire the machine gun of the eliminated crewman, the player has to put a crew movement token on the role circle for the position not occupied by this gunner to indicate this movement. (Flight of The Giants, pages 10 & 14)

Gas Cells

The Zeppelin is divided into 4 "zones". If you look carefully at the horizontal card in the first post, you will see that there are 4 distinct colored areas. These larger areas are considered to be a "zone", with each one containing a cluster of 4 gas cells. Each individual cell has a hit-point value indicated by 8 small round check boxes.

One of the methods for Zeppelin destruction, mentioned above, states that a Zeppelin may be "shot down" if 3 of these 4 zones are completely disabled. Each "gas zone" has been color coded on the horizontal management card for easy identification (the colors are used merely to distinguish zones and do not carry any inherent value based on their color). This means that for each "zone", 4 of the individual cells need to be dealt damage equal to the number of hit-boxes inside them. Once all of the hit-boxes for an individual cell are filled, a damage token is placed on the corresponding "token track" at the top of the card. After all the cells in a given zone are destroyed, that zone has been eliminated.When 3 of the 4 zones are eliminated, the zeppelin loses all altitude and crashes to the ground.

All flame, smoke, and explosion cards deal their damage directly to cells (instead of affecting the structural strength of the airship). Explosion cards automatically destroy an entire cell. Cells adjacent to the explosion also catch fire in the process. Likewise, flame and smoke cards not only deal damage equal to their face value, but they persist unil the cell is destroyed; smoke cards should be treated as if they were “fire”.

Once a cell is on fire, put a flame token on the corresponding damage track at the top of the horizontal management card. The gas cell takes an “A” damage card at the start of each turn, just as airplanes do. Only damage points and explosions are considered; all other types of special damage are ignored. Do not discard the flame token: For gas cells, fires do not end after the third turn as they do for planes. Subtract the face damage of each new damage card from the gas cell’s remaining hit points (modified from page 11 of Burning Drachens).

Only the Internal Mechanics (crew positions #15 & #16) may try to repair damaged gas cells. All gas cells are accessible by these two particular mechanics, thus crew movement tokens are unnecessary. If the Mechanic spends a whole turn at the gas cell, he can try to repair the damage done to it. At the end of the turn, after any fire is resolved, draw a “B” damage card. If the result is “0” or an explosion, the damage is permanent and cannot be repaired; if the result is “1” or more, the damage is repaired. If the damage is repaired, you can remove the corresponding token from the gas cell damage track. He can try only once for each gas cell, and for no more than one cell each turn. If an explosion card was drawn during the repair test, adjacent cells automatically catch fire.

Movement

This depends on a couple of things:

• Can you move your zeppelin kit easily?
• Does the scenario require the zeppelin to move?
• Is your gaming area large enough to accommodate movement?

If the answer to any of these questions is "yes", then movement is certainly feasible. Since the zeppelin, to scale, would need to be 3.5-4 feet in size, you certainly do not want the zeppelin to move very far during the game. My thoughts on the matter are this — to allow for airship movement, use one of the "XD" decks from Flight of the Giants, and only move the zeppelin at the end of every turn (instead of every movement phase).

1. Selecting a card from the "XD" deck, place the card at the front of the zeppelin's support base (see diagram below: dotted line = front of airship base)
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2. Instead of moving the entire model so that the rear of the base overlaps the front of the arrow, simply slide the zeppelin base forward, over-top the card, until the leading edge touches the point of the arrowhead.
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3. If the movement card has a curved arrow, swing the rear end of the zeppelin around so that it faces the appropriate direction.
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4. Remove the card.

Enemy Aircraft

For every 4 enemy aircraft attacking the zeppelin, add 1 friendly plane to defend the airship (single or two-seater — relative to the scenario).

Many of the members here on the forums, especially those who participated at Origins 2011, have suggested that there be a limit on which planes should be allowed in Zeppelin sorties. Using the LZ41 (L-11) as the example of an airship that survived the war, the effective cut off date for eligible planes should be around the middle of 1917. The L-11 was decommissioned effective August 1917. Since this particular Zeppelin went into active service in June of 1915, any plane between these two periods may be considered eligible for airship engagement. However — since zeppelins started to fade from popularity in the early to middle months of 1917, I've split the list of planes into two groups: planes in service up until May 1917, and planes that only began service starting in June 1917. This last grouping of planes (June to August 1917) may be worth excluding from use against zeppelins as the likelihood of their meeting in combat dwindled with with passing month.

I've gone through this list and pulled all of the eligible aircraft that have corresponding miniatures. The planes are listed below in chronological order, color coded by affiliation. Green planes represent Entente aircraft, while black plane titles represent the Central Powers. I'd like to shout a big "thanks" to Harrier for organizing that reference sheet.


Single-seaters

APRIL 1916 — MAY 1917

• Morane-Saulnier Type N (Series 5)
• Fokker E.III (Series 5)
• AIRCO D.H.2 (Series 5)
• Nieuport 17
• Halberstadt D.III (Series 5)
• Albatros D.III
• Nieuport 23
• SPAD XIII

JUNE 1917 — AUGUST 1917

• RAF S.E.5a
• Sopwith Camel
• Fokker DR.I
• Pfalz D.III

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Two-seaters

MARCH 1916 — MAY 1917

• L.F.G. Roland C.II
• RAF R.E.8
• De Havilland DH4 / AIRCO D.H.4
• Rumpler C.IV

JUNE 1917 — AUGUST 1917

• Breguet BR.14 B2

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Reasons for certain card elements

• Number of guns: The card was originally designed around 13 machine gun positions (as per Oberst Hajj's request). The total number of guns was later reduced to 8 in order to remain historically accurate. The guns, and their locations, listed in the crew roster above accurately reflects the amount of air-to-air firepower carried by the LZ41 (L-11).
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• Number of crew: Although the maximum operating crew for this particular airship, the number of crew positions has been lowered to 16. This was done for a couple of reasons. A crew of 16 was used on occasion during scouting scenarios, or when extra room was needed for an additional payload on a bombing run.
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• Why five pilots?: Since each pilot can suffer at least ONE wound before being incapacitated (killed), that's quite a lot of injuries a ship must suffer before going down from damage alone. However, I think having 5 instead of 6 is better as it gives the attackers a better chance for survival. Plus, if the zeppelin has 128 damage points, then there should be plenty of chances for the crew to suffer injuries, not to mention the ship catching fire or losing it's engines.
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• What's with that explosion icon in the lower right side of the horizontal card?: Since the Zeppelin has 128 points of damage, it would eventually get confusing trying to count and keep track of damage cards. The idea was that a finished card could be printed out and laminated, allowing for players to "write" the damage count directly onto the card with a dry-erase marker. The total could then be covered by stacking damage cards over top during the game play.
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• Why "B" damage? The type of guns mounted in zeppelin nacelles were single barrel MG08's and MG14's, instead of double mounted turrets. It's difficult to walk the line between "historical accuracy" and good game play. Andrea and the fine folks behind Wings of War do a smashing job of making sure planes are represented exactly how they would have appeared in real life, right down to the guns, maneuver decks, and so on. The way it has been explained before is that "A" damage decks represent dual barrel gun mounts, whereas the "B" damage deck represents single barrel gun mounts. Ergo, the zeppelin LZ41 (L-11) should only deal "B" type damage.

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Thanks goes out to Oberst Hajj (Keith), Clipper 1801 (Dave Haught), Stoff (Christoph), Hunter, Psuedotheist, Uselesshippy, Hardrock, AndrewLupp (Andy) and the rest of the Wings of War Aerodrome for their ideas and inspiration. Help by contributing your ideas and/or playtesting.

[Lugburz]

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Informative links about Zeppelins


• http://www.ww1aero.org.au/pdfs/Sample%20Journal%20Articles/L111999.pdf
This is the single most comprehensive guide to the LZ41 (L-11) that I found during my research. The PDF contains crew summaries, mission reports, photographs, airship data, and more. The author provides a verified and qualitative list of references at the end of the essay. Highly recommended.


• http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horst_Julius_Freiherr_Treusch_von_Buttlar-Brandenfels
German Wikipedia entry for the LZ41's Kapitän.


• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeppelin
Basic overview of Zeppelins and their evolution. Good starting place for general information.


• http://www.luftschiffwaffe.de
INCREDIBLY detailed; this manifest about Zeppelins is written entirely in German, but the data within is without measure. Clearly, the man who compiled this website (and the PDFs therein) is passionate about his love for German airships.


• http://www.zeppelinmuseum.eu
Good source of photos.


• http://www.zeppelin-museum.dk
Good source of photos, as well as hull diagrams. There is also a list of notable Zeppelin commanders.

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Photographs

• Kapitän zur See of the LZ41 (L-11)

• "Horst Julius Ludwig Otto Freiherr Treusch von Buttlar-Brandenfels"
• Kapt. von Buttlar and the crew of the L-11.

• Zeppelin L-11 being handled by a ground crew. Note the uneven camouflage pattern applied at the time.

• Zeppelin L-11 being taken out of her shed at Nordholz. Note the damage to her stern.

• Interior photograph of a hydrogen gas cell surrounded by the zeppelin's rigid air-frame.

• Tail gunner of the navy airship LZ36 (L-9).

• Interior of forward nacelle (modern photograph, ship model unknown, source: Flickr)

• Felix Schwormstädt 1917 - L'Illustration Magazine

• Felix Schwormstädt 1917

• Felix Schwormstädt 1917 - L'Illustration Magazine

• Felix Schwormstädt 1917 - L'Illustration Magazine

This is still a work in progress! More information about the LZ41 (L-11) to come! Check back for more details (in the first post as well) for updates on rule details, etc. I'm keen to know what people think and I love getting feedback.

[Hunter]

Boy Keegan, you got right after this and with great research and precision! Outstanding! Brilliant!

[Lugburz]

Boy Keegan, you got right after this and with great research and precision! Outstanding! Brilliant!

Thanks Terry! I expect that the control schemes for the Zeppelin will only get better once Keith posts his update about the airship sorties at Origins. He's supposedly going to provide a thread tomorrow evening with his thoughts on what went right (and wrong) with his the zeppelin scenario. I'm very excited to see what he has to say.


Lugz

UPDATE: 9:50 pm EST 6/27/11 — I've updated more of the first post, mostly answering questions at the bottom.

[Hunter]

Thanks Terry! I expect that the control schemes for the Zeppelin will only get better once Keith posts his update about the airship sorties at Origins. He's supposedly going to provide a thread tomorrow evening with his thoughts on what went right (and wrong) with his the zeppelin scenario. I'm very excited to see what he has to say.


Lugz

UPDATE: 9:50 pm EST 6/27/11 — I've updated more of the first post, mostly answering questions at the bottom.

Yes, I'm anxious to hear the details of the Zeppelin battle, what worked and what didn't. I was a little perplexed that the Zepp was shot down so readily. I, initially, thought it would be a tough bird to bag. Oh well, we'll see what Herr Oberst says in his upcoming thread.

[Lugburz]

UPDATE: 10:50 pm EST 6/27/11 — Lots of pictures added to the second post. Enjoy!

[Hunter]

UPDATE: 10:50 pm EST 6/27/11 — Lots of pictures added to the second post. Enjoy!

WOW! Those 1917 illustrations add a touch to the crew experiences! Does it say how the L11 received the stern damage? Way to go Keegan

[Skullduggery]

Nice illustrations and pictures. The cards look fantastic. Great job all around.

[HardRock]

I would revert the guns back to B, as that is what they really were. Zepps were not flying fortresses, just daunting to shoot down. But it could happen, which is why they flew many night missions.

[Doug]

I am impressed with the whole project. Well done Sir

[Dan-Sam]

And when will be a "mini"? Good job Keegan!

[Gaz67]

Nice work.
You can always explain away the "A" deck as the airship having lots more ammo to blaze away with and being a much more stable gun platform.

[uselesshippy]

I would revert the guns back to B, as that is what they really were. Zepps were not flying fortresses, just daunting to shoot down. But it could happen, which is why they flew many night missions.

You could argue that the stability of a zep (compared with a plane) would make the guns more accurate, hence they would be more likely to do more damage. This then justifies the A damage decks for the guns.

I'm in favour of it playing well over being accurate (provided it's not too inaccurate!)

[uselesshippy]

Are there any plans for movement? I quite like the idea of a scenario of the airship trying to get somewhere defended by planes etc.

[Sakana Takeru]

Hello Keegan,
brilliant job. Thank you very much.
I play WW2, but the desire to do WW1
I have load your files.

Takeru

[Lugburz]

Are there any plans for movement? I quite like the idea of a scenario of the airship trying to get somewhere defended by planes etc.

Well, this depends on a couple of things:

• Can you move your zeppelin kit easily?
• Does the scenario require the zeppelin to move?
• Is your gaming area large enough to accommodate movement?

If the answer to any of these questions is "yes", then movement is certainly feasible. Given the fact the zeppelin, to scale, would need to be 3-4 feet in size, you certainly would not want the zeppelin to move very far during the game. My thoughts on the matter are this — to allow for airship movement, use one of the "X" decks from Flight of the Giants, and only move the zeppelin at the end of every turn (instead of every movement phase).

1. Once a suitable "X" deck is decided upon, place the card at the front of the zeppelin's support base (see diagram below: dotted line = front of airship base)
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2. Instead of moving the entire model so that the rear of the base overlaps the front of the arrow, simply slide the zeppelin base forward, over-top the card, until the leading edge touches the point of the arrowhead.
   ---
3. If the movement card has a curved arrow, swing the rear end of the zeppelin around so that it faces the appropriate direction.
   ---
4. Remove the card.

I'm thinking that one of the "X" movement decks with a longer set of arrows would be preferable, since the zeppelin would only move at the end of each turn (phase 3).

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And when will be a "mini"?

Honest answer: I've been sworn to secrecy

[csadn]

Honestly: The people complaining about "the zep can't deal with the number of planes attacking it" need to do the research -- in Reality, zeps couldn't deal with *one* airplane attacking, much less a whole wad of same. Look at the loss rates for zeps in the war -- There Is A Reason For This. Attempting to carry more guns didn't help; bombload had to be reduced, and the thing was still a big, fat target.

Give the zeps the B-deck gun mounts they had in Reality, and get across to the gasbag-lovers why their vaunted zeps all-but-vanished after the war, to be replaced by the birds found in _FotG_.

[khorgor]

ok I'm going to have to be an idiot and ouble check something....

The card with the zep on it, thats not for actual play is it? The way I read it is that you keep this card in the management area to keep track of everything while the real zep (all 4 feet plus of it) is on the game table.

Is this correct?

Or are you really able to take the zep card (which appears to be about A4 size) and use that on the table for actual games?

Sorry for the stupid question!!!!

[AndrewLupp]

Amazing work Keegan. Can't wait to try it out...

[Lugburz]

ok I'm going to have to be an idiot and ouble check something....

The card with the zep on it, thats not for actual play is it? The way I read it is that you keep this card in the management area to keep track of everything while the real zep (all 4 feet plus of it) is on the game table.

Is this correct?

This is correct. The cards you see are simply management cards for the actual zeppelin model that you would have on the table. The plan at the moment would be for the zeppelin model to have gun arcs either:

• Cut into the support base (this is the ideal solution)
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• Laminated wedge templates designed to be "held up" to the actual model (so as to define the firing arc)

I'm still looking into designing these "wedges" so that players could print out the 2 management sheets, and the corresponding firing arcs, and then hold the wedges up to their model and use that as a reference point for firing.

[Lugburz]

Amazing work Keegan. Can't wait to try it out...

Thanks! If you do end up using these cards (and the rules that go with them), please report back and let me know how it turned out . Every piece of feedback I get from actual game-play helps improve the overall design.

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THREAD UPDATE: 06/28/11 — Optional Zeppelin Movement added to the "Rules" section of the first post.

[Volant Gun]

Thanks Keegan!
Most excellent work!

[Diamondback]

This is a good start--I'll see if I can find my Osprey volume on Zeppelins and start working up a framework to add the other Type P, P->Q and Q Zeppelins' data and histories to this. (Q was a P with about 15 meters of stretch, some were new-builds and some cut-n-splice from prebuilt P. Stretch was at the ends of the straight-wall "tube" section, 10m aft and 5m forward.)

[Oberst Hajj]

I've made my thread on how I ran the Zep games at Origins and how they went. I've also given my thoughts on what should be done to improve the game play.

Honestly: The people complaining about "the zep can't deal with the number of planes attacking it" need to do the research -- in Reality, zeps couldn't deal with *one* airplane attacking, much less a whole wad of same. Look at the loss rates for zeps in the war -- There Is A Reason For This. Attempting to carry more guns didn't help; bombload had to be reduced, and the thing was still a big, fat target.

Give the zeps the B-deck gun mounts they had in Reality, and get across to the gasbag-lovers why their vaunted zeps all-but-vanished after the war, to be replaced by the birds found in _FotG_.

Reality is great for real life, but in a game players want to have fun. I guarantee you that one or two planes flying around a Zep for 4 hours until they shoot it down would be no fun at all!

[Lugburz]

This is a good start--I'll see if I can find my Osprey volume on Zeppelins and start working up a framework to add the other Type P, P->Q and Q Zeppelins' data and histories to this. (Q was a P with about 15 meters of stretch, some were new-builds and some cut-n-splice from prebuilt P. Stretch was at the ends of the straight-wall "tube" section, 10m aft and 5m forward.)

Any data you have to share, for any Zeppelin type, please PM me whatever you think may be helpful or informative. I'm not ruling out the possibility of future cards for other airships WAY down the road (time permitting); I really want to get something solid put together for this particular zeppelin before moving on.

Also, PLEASE CHECK OUT OBERST HAJJ'S THREAD — it's well written and informative

Lugz

[Pseudotheist]

So, it seems jams were a large portion of the issues with the machine gun effectiveness. Rather than switching straightaway to the A deck, have you considered maybe a Jam to a Zeppelin machine gun only merits a single token? Since the gunner is working from a stable platform and not trying to fly a plane, the jam is much more trivial to fix. Also, as a couple other notes, were there access-ways between the machine gun nests and the control nacelles? If so, I'd allow one pilot/mechanic to transfer to & from each machine-gun nest to replace a fallen gunner. It may not have been likely, but if it would have been possible, I'd throw it in to help the gunner situation. And I'm curious how you did the ranging for the guns. If you measured range from the center of the Zeppelin, but targeting to the card or even the actual image of the Zeppelin, I'd bump out the ranging dots at least halfway to each side of the airship. Even then, do you have adequate coverage mid-ships between the nests? You might need to do something a little more dramatic to get proper protection.

[Lugburz]

So, it seems jams were a large portion of the issues with the machine gun effectiveness. Rather than switching straightaway to the A deck, have you considered maybe a Jam to a Zeppelin machine gun only merits a single token? Since the gunner is working from a stable platform and not trying to fly a plane, the jam is much more trivial to fix.

There have been a wealth of changes made from the very first card that I made for Keith to use at Origins. Herr Oberst Hajj did a fantastic job of conceptualizing some of the core concepts regarding the Zeppelin design, and he has reported back his experience in a post-origins mission summary (linked above). Based on the comments made by individuals who flew the Zeppelin sortie out in Ohio, I increased the damage deck from "A" to "B" on the pretense that extra firepower was needed after the total number of guns was reduced to their historic value of 8 (see MG positions in the first post).

As to the quoted comment from Pseudotheist, located above, this is a GREAT proposal. Future play testing will determine if the "A" damage deck is needed with only 8 gun positions. In the event that this seems unbalanced or overpowered, then I will happily reduce the cards to their original "B" damage value. Additionally, if the only problem plaguing a "B" damage Zeppelin is the fact that the guns jam too frequently, then limiting the number of jam tokens (as Pseudotheist describes) would be a great solution. Again, rigorous play testing will be needed to iron out the kinks. I plan to design at least 1-2 scenarios for using an airship — each with different variables (fighter escort, bombing mission, Entente swarm, etc). Expect some of these issues to be addressed in future updates.

Also, as a couple other notes, were there access-ways between the machine gun nests and the control nacelles? If so, I'd allow one pilot/mechanic to transfer to & from each machine-gun nest to replace a fallen gunner. It may not have been likely, but if it would have been possible, I'd throw it in to help the gunner situation.

I had not thought about allowing for pilots to take over gun positions where the original crewman had been killed. Given the fact that they were probably absorbed with monitoring engine issues or navigating, I assumed this would "keep them busy" — preventing them from chipping in as a backup gunner. You make an excellent point however, and this bears taking into consideration. Thanks for the suggestion!

And I'm curious how you did the ranging for the guns. If you measured range from the center of the Zeppelin, but targeting to the card or even the actual image of the Zeppelin, I'd bump out the ranging dots at least halfway to each side of the airship. Even then, do you have adequate coverage mid-ships between the nests? You might need to do something a little more dramatic to get proper protection.

Some of these issues are still up in the air, with a lot of it depending on what model people are using, and whether or not the support base for their Zeppelin can accommodate gun arcs being engraved on. It also depends upon whether the base is roughly the same width as the model it supports; most players measure from peg to bases/card when firing at the enemy. Since the Zeppelin is so LARGE, hits that might reach the hull of the craft might not actually reach the gunners or crew in their nacelles (as these were located centrally underneath the hull). Pilots may need to declare whether they are aiming at the airship OR the zeppelin's hull before firing their shot. If the ruler falls short of a nacelle, then it should default to hitting the hull (makes sense to me). Perhaps this would give the attacking planes an incentive to fly CLOSER to the Zeppelin in an attempt to silence the guns and kill the crew (also drawing them into the zeppelin's firing arcs). This may help with the "A" versus "B" debate currently going on. Expect a more definitive answer in the future, along with possible details about what this means for adaptig Zeppelin models. This was a great question!

Thanks again for the feedback
Lugz

[Lugburz]

THREAD UPDATE: 06/29/11 — The images in the first post have been updated to reflect certain changes that have been made to the overall design of the card. Gun strength lowered to "B" damage (maintains historical accuracy and satisfies the wants/needs of the community). Health increased to compensate for lack of fire power. Changes to the second management card now include "damage boxes" for each gas cell (8 check boxes per cell). Rules for gas cell destruction to follow later this evening.

[Oberst Hajj]

I can give a little insight as to how I did the gun locations and arcs during my games. My base was slightly wider then the Zep, but not by much at all... less then an inch I think.

I simply took one of the maneuver cards and placed it horizontally on the front part of the base, approximately where the top MG nest would be. I then marked a red dot at each of the corners for the actual guns. Here is a quick PowerPoint (hey, I'm at work!) diagram showing the arcs for them:



That was centered on the Zep base. I did the same basic thing for the four guns on the front gondola, this time vertically and each gun had a 180 degree arc... so it could cover the entire left or right side.

The tail gun covered 180 degrees, centered to the rear at the tail.

This gun placement left a very small corridor under/over the Zep (no altitude rules were used at Origins) where planes could not be shot. It also left rather large areas on the sides that players could "Yo-Yo" in and not take any shots at all from the Zep.

So, in short, the Zep's guns were inboard to a degree, but inline with what a plane has as well.

An attacking plane could only destroy a Zep gunner if they were actually in range to hit a gun. Same with the gas cells (I marked these out on the base as well).

[Lugburz]

I've been giving a lot of thought about how to balance the destruction of the airship. After talking with Oberst Hajj about his experience at Origins, and borrowing some of his ideas, the ideal "win" scenarios are this:

• Attacking planes deal structural damage equal to the zeppelin's strength (ie. 100 dmg), and the airship is shot down.
• Attacking planes deal enough special damage to disable 3 out of 4 gas "zones"

Without the actual model or cards in front of you, what I'm about explain can make your head hurt just a little bit. Please, stick with me.

The proposed operation of gas cells are this:

The Zeppelin is divided into 4 "zones". If you look carefully at the horizontal card in the first post, you will see that there are 4 distinct areas of gray. Each of these larger areas has been grouped into clusters of 4 cells. Additionally, each individual cell has a hit-point value indicated by small round check boxes (the strength of which I want to debate).

One of the methods for Zeppelin destruction, mentioned above, stated that a Zeppelin may be "shot down" if 3 of these 4 zones are completely disabled. This means that for each "zone", 4 of the individual cells would need to be dealt damage equal to the number of hit-boxes inside them. Once all of the hit-boxes for an individual cell are filled, a damage token is placed on the corresponding "token track" at the top of the card. After all the cells in a given zone are destroyed, that zone has been eliminated. When 3 of the 4 zones are eliminated, the zeppelin loses all altitude and crashes to the ground.

All flame, smoke, and explosion cards deal their damage directly to cells (instead of affecting the structural strength of the airship). Explosion cards automatically destroy an entire cell. Cells adjacent to the explosion also catch fire in the process. Likewise, flame and smoke cards not only deal damage equal to their face value, but they persist for three turns (as with the normal fire rules); smoke cards should be treated as if they were “fire”.

Once a cell is on fire (from either a smoke or fire card), draw three flame tokens and place them on the corresponding damage track at the top of the horizontal management card. Each turn, before players reveal their first maneuver card, the player will discard one of these tokens and draw a single damage card from the “A” damage deck. Only damage points or explosions will be taken into account. Subtract the face damage of the card from the gas cell’s remaining hit points.

NOW FOR THE DEBATE!

The ideal number for Zeppelin strength that keeps coming up is 100 points. Now, I agree with this number but it has also been causing me a bit of a headache lately. The reason why it has been causing me problems stems from the win scenario which involves "destroying 3 of the 4 gas zones" to kill a Zeppelin. Right now, each cell is worth 8 points. If you consider the "win" to involve blowing up 3 zones (with 4 cells per zone), then each zone is worth 32 — three of these being worth a total of 96 points.

If you extrapolate the gas cell totals to be equivalent to the airship's health, then the green damage number on the management card should be 128. Obviously, this exceeds the ideal 100 point value that Herr Oberst used for his sorties (and one that seems favorable right now to other forum members). I'm inclined to agree. Essentially, there are two competing ideas at work.

• Should the gas cell totals equal the ship strength?
• Should the total of three gas zones (a win scenario) be a separate value from the ship strength?

I hope this helps explain why I changed the card value to 128 (as seen in the first post). This is subject to change — I'm still inclined to agree that 100 points is the best overall value for the ship strength. If we agree to divorce the gas cell totals from the overall Zeppelin value, then should the cells continue to be valued at 8 points each, or should they come down to 6 points per cell?

Examples

If cells are worth 8 pts
Zeppelin value (overall): 100
Internal value (total of 3 zones): 96

OR

If cells are worth 6 pts
Zeppelin value (overall): 100
Internal value (total of 3 zones): 72

I also agree with Herr Oberst that the Zeppelin should receive 1 central power escort (single seat versus twin to be determined) for every 4 Entente attackers (ideally planes from 1915 to mid 1917).

Expect an update to the cards later this afternoon, EST


Lugz

[Oberst Hajj]

With the reduction of the number of guns from the 13 that I played with to only 8, I would be inclined to bump the structural points up to 128 points. During the games we actually talked about upping the points.

The issue that is going to come up during game play, is the lack of fire, smoke, and explosion cards to actually do gas cell damage. There is simply not enough of those cards to take out the 3 zones. I am inclined to have all planes carrying incendiary ammo (all special damages besides jams and wounded crew count as flame). In my games, the Zep got a lot of rudder jammed special damage... which had no effect at all.

I would also support the idea of the Zep's guns only jamming for 1-2 rounds and/or only on the green gun jam cards.

[Lugburz]

I would also support the idea of the Zep's guns only jamming for 1-2 rounds and/or only on the green gun jam cards.

I love this suggestion Someone else had made a comment along those same lines as well (what with the idea that a Zeppelin was a more stable gun platform and that Jams would be easier to clear. Play testing would determine whether or not 1-2 rounds would suffice (I'm inclined to say only 1) and to only acknowledge Green Jams. Isn't there and official optional rule that dictates that greens only count for observers?

Since I'm toying with the idea of having two INTERNAL mechanics (to fix damaged gas cells), should we say that once a cell is on fire, it stays on fire until it burns itself out (ie. Draws enough "A" damage cards to equal the cell's hit-points)? In that case, the few cells that explode or are set alight will DEFINITELY burn down and become destroyed. Mechanics would be prohibited from tryin to repair a cell until the fire is out (the cell is destroyed). If the "engine repair rules" are extrapolated to cover gas cells, then on a "B" card draw, all zeros or explosion cards mean the cell is permanently damaged (rules for engine repair are in Flight of the Giants). This way, repairing cells would NOT be a sure thing, but they also wouldn't be allowed until a cell burned out. You could also argue that if an explosion card was drawn during the repair test, adjacent cells automatically catch fire. This might compensate for the lack for fire/smoke draws (letting each cell burn out before it's destroyed/repaired)

As for the 128 points of health, I'm still ok with keeping it. I kind of wanted to hear what you thought Keith, as well as the rest of the 'drome. Are you cool with the cells being worth 8 points? I wouldn't have to change the cards from what they are now. The total damage need for INTERNAL DESTRUCTION would be 96 (that's across 3 zones)

[Pseudotheist]

This gun placement left a very small corridor under/over the Zep (no altitude rules were used at Origins) where planes could not be shot. It also left rather large areas on the sides that players could "Yo-Yo" in and not take any shots at all from the Zep.

I was afraid of that. I know these things were huge, but I have trouble believing that they were longer than twice the range of a machine-gun of the day...

IMHO that seriously needs to be addressed. Maybe you have to give the Zeppelin gunners a bonus half-ruler length to range or something (and you can go back to ranging from a single center dot). You'd almost definitely want to keep the guns at B damage in that case, though.

[Lugburz]

I was afraid of that. I know these things were huge, but I have trouble believing that they were longer than twice the range of a machine-gun of the day...

IMHO that seriously needs to be addressed. Maybe you have to give the Zeppelin gunners a bonus half-ruler length to range or something (and you can go back to ranging from a single center dot). You'd almost definitely want to keep the guns at B damage in that case, though.

Although I have been unable to find details about the MG14 Parabellum (which was used primarily for rear observers and Zeppelin gun crews), I was able to find range statistics for the MG08:

Maschinengewehr 08 — "Spandau" MG08
Effective Range: 2,200 yards (2,012 meters)
Maximum Range: 4,000 yards (3,658 meters)

Compare that to ...

Zeppelin LZ41 (L-11)
Length: 536.4 FT (178.8 Yards)
Diameter: 61.35 FT

Although the MG08 and the MG14 were not the same, the MG14 was patterned on its older sibling. The main changes involved cutting the barrel cover on the MG14 to allow for "air cooling" instead of the water cooled barrel native to the MG08. other changes included a wooden butt-stock to reduce weight. The MG14 also utilized a lighter jacket casing. Although I am unsure what this means for total muzzel velocity, and whether its effective range was substancially different from the MG08, they are similar enough for this discussion. Given the fact that Zeppelin gun crews were offered a relatively stable firing platform, an MG08 could feasibly fire 10 times the length of the airship. In fact, some of the photos I've found do indeed show gunners using the water-cooled barrel associated with the MG08 (see the photograph of the "tail gunner" I included in the second post on this page). Since zeppelins bore a mix of MG08's and MG14's, we can assume that firing arcs for each gun position were more than enough to protect the airship (physical obstructions withstanding). The rules for Wings of War that govern firing distance are a convention established by the game designers.

If the effective range of a mounted machine gun, firing from a relatively stable platform, was enough to shoot more than the length of the ship, it isn't unreasonable to consider lengthening the firing distance from more than one ruler. The exact length I do not know, but Pseudotheist brings up a great point, which again could alleviate some of the "dead spot" woes that plagued Keith's sorties at Origins, while also helping to improve the effectiveness of the 8 "B" guns. Heck, if the ruler length was slightly longer than what a plane could fire, it would certainly make it a bit trickier for enemy pilots swooping in for the kill.

Lugz

[Lugburz]

Thread Update: 06/30/11 — I have updated the first post to reflect the correct Zeppelin damage stats, gas cell rules, and other small odds and ends. Expect a future update (probably after play testing) in regards to ruler length. Scenarios are also forthcoming. Thank you for your continued support and patience!


Lugz

[csadn]

OK, I'm a bit confused here. Why do you have two discrete conditions, when one will suffice?

[*]Attacking planes deal structural damage equal to the zeppelin's strength (ie. 100 dmg), and the airship is shot down.[*]Attacking planes deal enough special damage to disable 3 out of 4 gas "zones"[/list]

As pointed out:

The ideal number for Zeppelin strength that keeps coming up is 100 points. Now, I agree with this number but it has also been causing me a bit of a headache lately. The reason why it has been causing me problems stems from the win scenario which involves "destroying 3 of the 4 gas zones" to kill a Zeppelin. Right now, each cell is worth 8 points. If you consider the "win" to involve blowing up 3 zones (with 4 cells per zone), then each zone is worth 32 — three of these being worth a total of 96 points.

That being the case: Why not decrease the overall strength to 96? Doing so means the victory condition is the same, regardless of whether it's scattered across the entire zep, or focused on particular areas.

[Lugburz]

OK, I'm a bit confused here. Why do you have two discrete conditions, when one will suffice?

There are essentially two ways you can go about designing a zeppelin and determining how it is destroyed. The simplest answer is to say it has a value of "X"; reduce this value to "0" and you win! However, Oberst Hajj and I are inclined to make the elimination of gas cells a viable means of eliminating an airship in addition to reducing its core value to "0". Damage to the buoyant inner parts of the ship is ratified only when "special damage" cards are drawn after an attack. All other damage is directed at diminishing the overall value to "0". Think of it this way — if 3/4 of the zeppelin's gas cells have been destroyed, there is no hope in heaven or hell that she will stay aloft (much less make a safe landing). In this situation, the ship plummets to the earth and is destroyed. In the event that the gas cells withstand the abuse of the attack, that does not mean that subsequent structural damage won't bring down an airship.

Complete structural failure (reducing strength to "0") and complete gas cell failure (destroy 3 of 4 zones) will always eliminate an airship. Partially completing either of these does not guarantee a win by the attackers — a mostly buoyant zeppelin and a mostly intact structure could still theoretically escape to safety. This is why there are two distinct conditions; although there are really many more than that.

Your first post in the thread seemed a bit heated towards zeppelins in general, so I understand why you might be turning a critical eye towards some of the rules outline above. Mind you, all of these are subject to change. Each new revision brings this project one step closer towards having a balanced but thorough rule-set for zeppelins in Wings of War. I should point out that there are actually more than "two" win conditions. Although my wording may not be the best (and there has been a lot of updates to manage), the total number of ways to win are quite varied:

• Deplete the total strength of the zeppelin (128)
• Destroy 3 out of 4 gas zones (may only happen as the result of special damage)
• Kill all of the pilots (5 total)
• Destroy all of the engines (4 total; it only takes 1 failure card to wreck an engine; attempts to fix it may completely destroy the engine)
• Zeppelin climbs to safety by gaining "X" turns of altitude before game ends (optional - suggested in the Zeppelin Over Ohio thread)

Lugz

PS: Many of the Origins players felt that the strength could be bumped up a bit from 100 (especially now that I've gone and dropped the guns down from 13 to 8). The guns also do "B" damage now as you suggested in your first post.

[Lugburz]

Thread Update: 06/30/11 (5:30pm) — Win scenarios have been added to the master post at the top. Also, I'm copy & pasting the rules for drawing damage chits to determine which engines/pilots/gas-cells are under attack when drawing damage cards (lifted from Flight of The Giants, pages 6 & 13). Some of these will be made live, in real time, so just refresh the page. Thanks!

Lugz


PS: I am in the process of making "gas cell" & additional "crew" tokens (for use when determining who/what takes damage after drawing cards)

FINAL UPDATE FOR TODAY — 6:21 PM EST: I've adjusted some of the grammar and formatting.

[AndrewLupp]

Keegan,

I like the idea of the 2 victory condition based on damage - total structure damage and gas cell damage as victory conditions and I guess the number of points for the overall integrity vs, gas cells is something I will leave to more mathematically minded. ( I know my shortcomings) But my inquiry is based on the sentence...

All flame, smoke, and explosion cards deal their damage directly to cells (instead of affecting the structural strength of the airship).

Anyway a few observations/questions... ( and forgive me while I logic this out)

First ...If I understand the way damage is dealt ( straight damage cards affect the overall structural of the Zep. And Flame, smoke and explosions cards damage the cell (not the structure) and create an "on fire" condition. It seems ( based on percentages that I cant really figure out) that the cells will take more damage than the structure. Only because it automatically catches fire and stays on fire (unlike planes that end in 3 turns). So besides initial damage from the special result cards, the cell takes ongoing damage until its destroyed ( or until crew repairs it)? Is that right?

If thats the case, what "structure" does the straight damage cards damage? It seems that in a zeppelin of this size any pip, squeeze or burst from guns would damage very little of the structure of the zep. I mean look at the picture. Based on size ratios, ( bullets to zeppelin area), I would think that the bullets would hit only fabric and occasionally a iron support beam. The chances of hitting anything that could cause structural damage would be very low - as opposed to a plane that would have more vital components at risk, cables, oil lines etc. So..

I would think that almost every bullet fired would pass through the fabric maybe even ricochet a bit and hit the gas cells. (unless of course a special crew/pilot damage is drawn.) They wouldn't necessarily ignite but definitely the major component that would be hit - at least comprises the most area of the mass of a zep are the gas cells. In fact...

I would think that the majority of damage to the "structure" of the zep ( in this case represented by the number 128) would come from exploding and flaming gas cells They would melt the internal structure, snap cables, burn the fabric..( even choke crew members but let's not get carried away.)

So here is a idea or two. ( keeping all damage card to pilot/mechanics, and engine the same)

1. In the spirit of simplicity, ( maybe a basic game optional rule? ) eliminate the 128 points of overall structural damage, make the gas cell points total 128 (or another higher? number) and make all straight,flame, smoke and explosion damage cards drawn damage the cells. (Using the same rules for flame, smoke and explosion as you mentioned above.)

2. OR for more realism, keep the rules the same as you have them ( straight damage damages the overall structure and flame, smoke and explosions damage the cells) however Half the damage done by straight shots to the structure (rounding down) and when Cell damage is drawn, take a percentage ( 25%? 33%?) of the Cell card damage and apply it to the structure in addition to the cell damage.

3. Or reverse that. Have all damage including flame, smoke and explosion cards damage the structure, with only the flame, smoke and explosion cads applying their special effects to the cells.

It seems that both components, ( structure points and cell points) should play off of each other in some way.

Lastly (I promise) how is the cell to be damaged (hit) determined? Does the pilot call their shot? Is it the cell area most visible to the firing arc?

Thanks so much for the chance to ask and suggest.

Andy

[Skullduggery]

Or for simplicity make even damage cards structure and odd cell damage or visa versa.

[Oberst Hajj]

First ...If I understand the way damage is dealt ( straight damage cards affect the overall structural of the Zep. And Flame, smoke and explosions cards damage the cell (not the structure) and create an "on fire" condition. It seems ( based on percentages that I cant really figure out) that the cells will take more damage than the structure. Only because it automatically catches fire and stays on fire (unlike planes that end in 3 turns). So besides initial damage from the special result cards, the cell takes ongoing damage until its destroyed ( or until crew repairs it)? Is that right?

That is correct. Lets say that a Sopwith Camel shot the Zep at close range. The two cards of damage dealt were a 3 and a 4 Smoke. The 3 points would go towards the structure while the 4 points would go to gas cells. That cell would then be on fire and would take another A damage at the start of every turn until all 8 points that the gas cell can take are gone.

One would think that you would kill the Zep much faster by the "Gas Method" since once on fire, they continue to take damage. However, play testing has shown this not to be the case! The relatively few cards with special damage on them that can cause gas cell damage means that you don't set many of them on fire.

If thats the case, what "structure" does the straight damage cards damage? It seems that in a zeppelin of this size any pip, squeeze or burst from guns would damage very little of the structure of the zep. I mean look at the picture. Based on size ratios, ( bullets to zeppelin area), I would think that the bullets would hit only fabric and occasionally a iron support beam. The chances of hitting anything that could cause structural damage would be very low - as opposed to a plane that would have more vital components at risk, cables, oil lines etc. So..

I would think that almost every bullet fired would pass through the fabric maybe even ricochet a bit and hit the gas cells. (unless of course a special crew/pilot damage is drawn.) They wouldn't necessarily ignite but definitely the major component that would be hit - at least comprises the most area of the mass of a zep are the gas cells. In fact...

I would think that the majority of damage to the "structure" of the zep ( in this case represented by the number 128) would come from exploding and flaming gas cells They would melt the internal structure, snap cables, burn the fabric..( even choke crew members but let's not get carried away.)

Don't forget that structure in this case applies not only to the outer fabric and frame work, but also the gondolas, engine nacelles (but not the engines them selves or not doing Engine Damage), the very huge fins, both nose and tail cones, interior walkways, and all sorts of other "support" stuff.

So here is a idea or two. ( keeping all damage card to pilot/mechanics, and engine the same)

1. In the spirit of simplicity, ( maybe a basic game optional rule? ) eliminate the 128 points of overall structural damage, make the gas cell points total 128 (or another higher? number) and make all straight,flame, smoke and explosion damage cards drawn damage the cells. (Using the same rules for flame, smoke and explosion as you mentioned above.)

2. OR for more realism, keep the rules the same as you have them ( straight damage damages the overall structure and flame, smoke and explosions damage the cells) however Half the damage done by straight shots to the structure (rounding down) and when Cell damage is drawn, take a percentage ( 25%? 33%?) of the Cell card damage and apply it to the structure in addition to the cell damage.

3. Or reverse that. Have all damage including flame, smoke and explosion cards damage the structure, with only the flame, smoke and explosion cads applying their special effects to the cells.

It seems that both components, ( structure points and cell points) should play off of each other in some way.

Lastly (I promise) how is the cell to be damaged (hit) determined? Does the pilot call their shot? Is it the cell area most visible to the firing arc?

Thanks so much for the chance to ask and suggest.

Andy

As these are all just house rules, each gaming group is free to play it as they wish. I think doing fractional or percentage damage is just was to complicated and too much record keeping during a game.

In the games I've ran, players just fire at the Zep. If the flame/smoke/explosion card is drawn, that round hit the gas cell (no calling the shot or anything like that). On my Zep base, I marked off each of the gas cells. The closest cell to the attacking plane, within it's firing arc, was the cell that was it. If the closest cell was already destroyed, the hit was applied to the next closest cell in range and in arc.

[Lugburz]

Thanks for fielding some of the questions above Keith! I'm a bit ham-strung at work since I can only reply using my phone (which is both tedious and time consuming). @ Andy: Everything that Keith outlined above is absolutely correct. In respect to your concern that the "gas cell" win condition would be too easy, let's not forget about those two mechanics inside the hull. They stand a chance to repair damaged cells, but ONLY after the fires have gone out. As with the "engine repair" rules found on page 13 in Flight of The Giants, attempting to fix a damaged cell does not guarantee that it will work again; pulling a "0" or an explosion card renders all repair impossible and that cell (or engine) is permanently destroyed. In fact, pulling an explosion card during the repair test might even cause other adjacent cells to catch on fire!

In the games I've ran, players just fire at the Zep. If the flame/smoke/explosion card is drawn, that round hit the gas cell (no calling the shot or anything like that). On my Zep base, I marked off each of the gas cells. The closest cell to the attacking plane, within it's firing arc, was the cell that was it. If the closest cell was already destroyed, the hit was applied to the next closest cell in range and in arc.

This is another great way to resolve which part of the Zeppelin is hit. I defaulted to using the Flight of The Giants rules for determining crew/vehicle damage (drawing numbered chits at random), but Keith's solution is more realistic, and a bit more advanced. This would make for a good optional GM rule. I still plan to make numbered chits for players to download and print out, for use with the Zeppelin. Unfortunately, there arent enough numbered chits in the Flight of The Giants box to just adopt those, so expect an update from me in the future.

[AndrewLupp]

Ok I can see that - especially if playtested - Eliminate the percentages as it does get complicated. But I see this as a simplification. All cards damage the structure - especially when the gas cells are on fire - so as opposed to an "either/or" damage allocation -both are damaged with every shot. Again I cant see how bullets passing through a Zep wont hit that gas cells as they make up the majority of the interior. How will this affect how fast teh Zep goes down? Seems like in the Origins event - it didnt get a chance to take down many planes.

How about when a gas cell catches fire - it damages both the cell and the structure? (with even damage points for both? ) It makes logical sense


Andy

[Lugburz]

Ok I can see that - especially if playtested - Eliminate the percentages as it does get complicated. But I see this as a simplification. All cards damage the structure - especially when the gas cells are on fire - so as opposed to an "either/or" damage allocation -both are damaged with every shot. Again I cant see how bullets passing through a Zep wont hit that gas cells as they make up the majority of the interior. How will this affect how fast teh Zep goes down? Seems like in the Origins event - it didnt get a chance to take down many planes.

How about when a gas cell catches fire - it damages both the cell and the structure? (with even damage points for both? ) It makes logical sense

Andy,

You make a good point which I highlighted in bold with the above quote. My thought on the matter had initially been in line with Keith's logic. Let's use his example:

A Sopwith Camel shoots the Zeppelin at close range, causing it to draw two "A" damage cards. The first card is for 3 damage (no special effect). This reduces the airship's structure by 3. The second card is a 4 with a "Smoke" effect. After determining which cells is affected, deal 4 damage to the cell and consider it "on fire" (remaining on fire every turn until it burns out; repairs may be attempted once the fire is out).

Essentially, the 4 Smoke not only sets the cell on fire but gets the ball rolling by starting it off with 4 damage (ie. Check off the necessary hit-boxes and drop a fire token on the damage track; keep pulling damage cards, for that cell, every turn in accordance to the prolonged fire rules from Burning Drachens). What you're suggesting is definitely interesting. If I'm understanding it correctly, your idea would involve dealing the plain damage to the airship PLUS the damage from special effect cards: all of it directed at reducing the structural integrity of the Zeppelin. Since the special effect on the 4 Smoke card from the example above will already set the cell on fire, the number value from the card doesn't necessarily HAVE to be attributed to the cell. It could instead be lumped into reducing the overall strength. Below is the same scenario, but using the idea you suggested:

A Sopwith Camel shoots the Zeppelin at close range, causing it to draw two "A" damage cards. The first card is for 3 damage (no special effect). This reduces the airship's structure by 3. The second card is a 4 with a "Smoke" effect. Automatically deal 4 damage to the airship structure (so far it has been hit for a total of 7 from both cards). After determining which cells is affected, consider it "on fire" (remaining on fire every turn until it burns out; repairs may be attempted once the fire is out).

In the second example, the ship strength would dwindle faster, whereas the first example would kickstart the speed with which a gas cells burns (ie. does it get a head start). Something to consider is that damage cells stand the chance of being repaired; damage dealt to the structure is irreversible. This will definitely be a subject to incorporate into play testing to see how it affects the speed and difficulty of the game. Who knows, dealing all card numbers to the ship might be better (or not). I'll let you know once I actually get around to running a sortie or two.

Lugz

[AndrewLupp]

Yes thats what I meant. Hmm...again these comments come from imagining the logical allocation of damage and not from playtesting.... yet. So maybe things are balanced.

So this would mean the structure points could be higher than the Gas Cell points. And definitely make the overall structure of the Zep drop faster. Which from what it sounds like, may not be a good idea if as Keith said, the planes took it down without too many casualties.




Andy

[Lugburz]

Yes thats what I meant. Hmm...again these comments come from imagining the logical allocation of damage and not from playtesting.... yet. So maybe things are balanced.

So this would mean the structure points could be higher than the Gas Cell points. And definitely make the overall structure of the Zep drop faster. Which from what it sounds like, may not be a good idea if as Keith said, the planes took it down without too many casualties.

You hit upon the exact problem I'm facing right now. Play-testing I've made arrangements to "correct" this problem and should have something to report in the near future. In the meantime, all I can do is hammer away at my keyboard, speculating which rules "sound" the best.


Lugz

[Nightbomber]

I know it may be off topic a bit, but... I'm a history buff, especially in love with my home town Opole (germ. Oppeln during WWI until 1945). Imagine I live and work in a town over which Zeppelin was flying on regular schedule. Below you see an old town of Opole with the airship flying over. The photo was taken in 1930 and turned into a postcard. The towers and buildings you can see still exist...

[csadn]

Your first post in the thread seemed a bit heated towards zeppelins in general, so I understand why you might be turning a critical eye towards some of the rules outline above.

Actually it's because I've done the Zep Damage Dance before -- ever heard of a game titled _Crimson Skies_? Lots of zeps there -- and Yours Falsely was involved in a project to simplify, and fix glitches in, the rules, including Zeps.

(This resulted in my having to do a bucketload of research on zeps -- which is why I get quite so irritated with people who seem to think "the skies are not cloudy all day". Or windy. :) )

[*]Deplete the total strength of the zeppelin (128)[*]Destroy 3 out of 4 gas zones (may only happen as the result of special damage)[*]Kill all of the pilots (5 total)[*]Destroy all of the engines (4 total; it only takes 1 failure card to wreck an engine; attempts to fix it may completely destroy the engine)[*]Zeppelin climbs to safety by gaining "X" turns of altitude before game ends (optional - suggested in the Zeppelin Over Ohio thread)[/LIST]

OK -- I wasn't clear on exactly how the gas cells (is that what you mean by "gas zones"?) fit into the whole damage system. The impression I had was: The total strength was divided among the gas cells.

Random thought re victory conditions 4 and 5:

-- Are there options for zeps with more, or fewer, engines?
-- I seem to recall some attempts to make "height-climber" acft. to go after the "height-climber" zeps, so how would one of those acft. affect the "climbing out of range" condition?

[Lugburz]

Which is why I get quite so irritated with people who seem to think "the skies are not cloudy all day". Or windy.

I don't mean to offend with these cards and the rules that have been drafted for them. I'm merely trying to pick up where Keith (Oberst Hajj) left off when he asked me to draft a card for use at Origins. To me, it seems like a number of people at the 'drome have inquired about the use of zeppelins in their missions and I'm trying my very best to help them. It is not my intention to "glorify" zeppelins or make them into unstoppable floating behemoths, raining fire down upon Entente aircraft without fear of reprisal. You just seem to be a little critical about airships in general with quotes like these:

I suggest you get (if you don't have it already) Airships At War -- it is... illustrative... as to why military airships failed in WW1 (and why they're never ever making a comeback).

Give the zeps the B-deck gun mounts they had in Reality, and get across to the gasbag-lovers why their vaunted zeps all-but-vanished after the war, to be replaced by the birds found in _FotG_.

That said, the goal of this thread wasn't to stir up animosity about whether airships deserve any merit, but instead to craft a set of cohesive rules for the community to use (of which there are none). I see this as a group effort, and many of the constructive comments made by forum members have made their way into the rules you see at the top of the page. This thread continues to evolve and grow and will continue to change as future play-testing occurs. I do apologize if this sounds priggish, but let's not get bogged down in "dissing" zeppelins. If you would prefer to not use them in your sorties, so be it. Other zeppelin rule sets would be a welcome contribution to the forums I'm sure. Let's keep comments constructive.


------------------------

OK -- I wasn't clear on exactly how the gas cells (is that what you mean by "gas zones"?) fit into the whole damage system. The impression I had was: The total strength was divided among the gas cells.

Random thought re victory conditions 4 and 5:

-- Are there options for zeps with more, or fewer, engines?
-- I seem to recall some attempts to make "height-climber" acft. to go after the "height-climber" zeps, so how would one of those acft. affect the "climbing out of range" condition?

Where it says "3 out of 4 gas zones", this is what was meant: The Zeppelin is divided into 4 "zones". If you look carefully at the horizontal card in the first post, you will see that there are 4 distinct areas of gray. Each of these larger areas has been grouped into clusters of 4 cells. Additionally, each individual cell has a hit-point value indicated by 8 small round check boxes.

As for your second question: The rules you see in the first post (in their current state) are designed primarily for the LZ41 (L-11). I won't rule out the potential for future airship cards, but until there is a fully functioning framework for this first design, I won't be branching out to other airships. However, there are options for zeppelins with more or less engines. The rules, as they are written, are taken primarily from Flight of The Giants. Simply extrapolate the rules located in FOTG (pg 13), and borrow anything that might be of use from this thread. Everything you seen in that first post could feasibly be expanded to apply to any airship, but you would still have to grapple with balancing issue when it came to ship strength, number of gas cells, number of crew, and so on.

Regarding your question about "climbing to safety": This was a scenario suggested by our dear Officer Kyte in the "Zeppelins Over Ohio" thread run by Oberst Hajj. I had provided a link to that post in the win condition section up top. Since I haven't really developed that scenario, and I doubt Kyte has given it much more thought, there isn't really an answer to your question. I suppose if you were flying planes that were considered to be "height climbers" you simply wouldn't use this as a potential win condition.

Best wishes,
Lugz

[Lugburz]

DISCLAIMER: All of the card files on the server, and the card thumbnails on this thread are updated every time I make changes. Please refresh your web browser or clear your image cache if you have trouble seeing the changes. Thanks!

THREAD UPDATE: 07/02/11 — Oberst Hajj (Keith) sent me an excellent idea via PM that I thought I would implement. Keith suggested that I color code the "gas zones" on the horizontal management card, so as to make them easy to identify. I admit after reading the rules for a second time how someone might confuse the difference between a "gas zone" and a "gas cell". Each zone has been given a distinctive hue (colors are of no value or consequence, merely used for distinction). I also shifted the position of the rooftop MG nest in the vertical management card. In reality, the top-side gun nest would have been located DIRECTLY above the front nacelle. Showing the zeppelin from above makes it impossible for the crew numbers to occupy the same space. Since the hull MG's and the Front Nacelle MG's are located above one another, this is the sketch that I made showing roughly what the arc shapes will be like. This is NOT to scale (yet) and was made only to illustrate what the final arcs might look like. This image will not be added to the master post at the top of the page until it's "finished". See the diagram below. Enjoy!


Topside MG nest colors:
Green = Forward Facing MG
Blue = Port Facing MG
Magenta = Starboard Facing MG

Arrows lengths represent how far each gun may turn. I'm still having trouble figuring out how to represent this through colors since the front nacelle and the hull MG nest are all on top of one another (hence the arrows).