My Kingdom for...

[predhead]

..a Thomas-Morse S-4C!



It is a very small kingdom I offer, the size of a postage stamp really, but if Shapeways designers can provide us with the Curtiss JN-4 Jenny (thank you Colinwe), and the Kettering Bug (thanks Z's, Kampfflieger, and Columbia Aerodrome), then certainly we can see a Tommy! Did it see service? Yes, albeit as a trainer. But how cool is the Tommy? It was made in large numbers, became the iconic World War I movie plane after the war, and looks darn good.

In looking at the unofficial stats file, it appears there might be a few ratings issues:

Altitude - Service ceiling was 15,000 feet, so a rating of 5 is right out.
Climb - Could climb at a rate between the Albatros D.II and D.III, closer to the latter, so the rating of 11 is really off.

I am thinking the stats team might have the numbers reversed on the spreadsheet, and I would suggest the climb rate be 4.



Strnad, Frank. The Thomas Morse Scout. London: Profile Publications, 1966.
Swanborough, Gordon and Bowers, Peter. United States Navy Aircraft since 1911. London:Putnam, Second edition, 1976.

[Jager]

Certainly would be an interesting plane to have.

Karl

[Larry R.]

Undoubtedly, the foremost authority on the Thomas Morse S4 is Roger Freeman, curator of the Pioneer Flight Museum at Kingsbury, Texas. Roger has rebuilt two Tommys, and has enough original parts for several more. Here's the museum website address:

https://pioneerflightmuseum.org/aircraft/

[camelbeagle]

Would be an interesting plane to have on the table!

[OldGuy59]

I class this plane as "Interwar", as it wasn't in combat in Europe?

[Edit: Changed to WGF version.]

If desired, this could be redone in WWF or WGF formats.

[flash]

..In looking at the unofficial stats file, it appears there might be a few ratings issues..

Yep, that looks out of whack for sure, maybe run it past the 'Tools for working out stats' doc to see if it lines up for climb rate and alt.
This was given an R deck, correct for the speed given for the smaller engine version it appears; it would have been the Nexus one, not the much more overly nimble Ares version which came along much later, so very slow for 1918. I wouldn't fancy its chances in combat against anything the Germans could field at the time.
Great looking machine though, the Sopwith influence clearly shows through but I'm also wondering if the 17 damage points are warranted ? That would put it on a par with the Pfalz D.XII and many tandems. Might mean it lasts a bit longer I suppose !

[predhead]

I class this plane as "Interwar", as it wasn't in combat in Europe?

If desired, this could be redone in WWF or WGF formats.

Thank you for the card! But no, not involved in combat after the war. There was the Thomas-Morse MB-3 which became the main US fighter until the mid 1920s or so. So a card suitable for the Great War would be ideal.

[predhead]

Yep, that looks out of whack for sure, maybe run it past the 'Tools for working out stats' doc to see if it lines up for climb rate and alt.
This was given an R deck, correct for the speed given for the smaller engine version it appears; it would have been the Nexus one, not the much more overly nimble Ares version which came along much later, so very slow for 1918. I wouldn't fancy its chances in combat against anything the Germans could field at the time.
Great looking machine though, the Sopwith influence clearly shows through but I'm also wondering if the 17 damage points are warranted ? That would put it on a par with the Pfalz D.XII and many tandems. Might mean it lasts a bit longer I suppose !

The damage points seemed high as well, and then upon looking at the source materials there was not a single structural mishap during its career. Pilot error, that is another story. Ceiling of 15,000 feet would be 4572 meters, rounded to 4600 gives an 11, or could be 10 at the 4000+ band.

There is also the performance differences based on the engine used. The Gnome would give a much better climb rate and a slightly higher speed (10 mph or 161.9 kph), kicking the plane into the average speed band and giving an I or D deck for agility. The climb rate using the Gnome would be a 2 (10000 feet in 13 minutes). However, the Gnome was not reliable and the Le Rhone was primarily used. Speed was 95 mph, dropping the plane into the slow speed range. Climb time to 10,000 feet (3048 meters) was 22 minutes, which then makes climb rate 3. The Le Rhone engine planes could then be an E, P, or R deck for agility. I believe the plane to be more agile than the R deck.

Sources are as follows:

Casari, Robert B. American Military Aircraft 1908-1919. Aeronaut Books, 2014.
Strnad, Frank. The Thomas Morse Scout. Profile Publications, 1966.
Swanborough, Gordon and Bowers, Peter. United States Navy Aircraft since 1911. Putnam, Second edition, 1976.

[OldGuy59]

Thank you for the card! But no, not involved in combat after the war. There was the Thomas-Morse MB-3 which became the main US fighter until the mid 1920s or so. So a card suitable for the Great War would be ideal.

Card above changed to WGF format. The "R" maneuver deck in WGS format would have been a bit fast for this plane.

The damage points seemed high as well, and then upon looking at the source materials there was not a single structural mishap during its career. ...

Structural issues in a plane were not necessarily the indicator of how damage resistant a plane is. Construction counts, but how well a plane stands up to being perforated also counts. Plywood skins (Albatros planes) and metal tubular construction (late war Fokkers) also resisted bullet damage more than fabric and wood frames.

Looking at the images of this plane, I'd be surprised if it was more than 14. But, that is just me spitballing, not an informed opinion.

[flash]

The damage points seemed high as well, and then upon looking at the source materials there was not a single structural mishap during its career. Pilot error, that is another story. Ceiling of 15,000 feet would be 4572 meters, rounded to 4600 gives an 11, or could be 10 at the 4000+ band.
There is also the performance differences based on the engine used. The Gnome would give a much better climb rate and a slightly higher speed (10 mph or 161.9 kph), kicking the plane into the average speed band and giving an I or D deck for agility. The climb rate using the Gnome would be a 2 (10000 feet in 13 minutes). However, the Gnome was not reliable and the Le Rhone was primarily used. Speed was 95 mph, dropping the plane into the slow speed range. Climb time to 10,000 feet (3048 meters) was 22 minutes, which then makes climb rate 3. The Le Rhone engine planes could then be an E, P, or R deck for agility. I believe the plane to be more agile than the R deck.

I'm guessing the committee went with the Le Rhone as it was the most common engine used and matches the speed they used.
Looking at the Tools for working out stats, unless I've been reading it wrong, the climb rate would be 5 (as 22 mins falls between 15 & 28,2 on the chart) and Alt 11 as they'd selected, so it looks like they were on track with that.
The Gnome powered climb rate would be 4 (as 13 mins falls between 12,5 & 13,4 on the chart), the faster speed would give it a J deck if following the manoeuvres of the R deck selected for the other, or, maybe a V deck now that's available.
For the Le Rhone version the Ares R deck would be the most manoeuvrable in that slow speed bracket, if not that the E deck would be good fit. No fancy tight turns though, you'd have to make up a deck for that if you can evidence it. Might be worth researching it's turning capabilities.
I'm thinking they went with solid built mid 1917 to get to 17 strength - I'd go with what Mike said and plump for something less - maybe a 15 to match a Camel due to it's Sopwith influence.

[Larry R.]

I would consult Roger Freeman who owns and flies a Tommy that was built from original parts including an original engine, a Le Rhone 80hp, I believe. The plane is flown at fly-ins a few times a year when weather us suitable. Roger also owns a Fokker Dr.1 with original engine.

[predhead]

I'm guessing the committee went with the Le Rhone as it was the most common engine used and matches the speed they used.
Looking at the Tools for working out stats, unless I've been reading it wrong, the climb rate would be 5 (as 22 mins falls between 15 & 28,2 on the chart) and Alt 11 as they'd selected, so it looks like they were on track with that.
The Gnome powered climb rate would be 4 (as 13 mins falls between 12,5 & 13,4 on the chart), the faster speed would give it a J deck if following the manoeuvres of the R deck selected for the other, or, maybe a V deck now that's available.
For the Le Rhone version the Ares R deck would be the most manoeuvrable in that slow speed bracket, if not that the E deck would be good fit. No fancy tight turns though, you'd have to make up a deck for that if you can evidence it. Might be worth researching it's turning capabilities.
I'm thinking they went with solid built mid 1917 to get to 17 strength - I'd go with what Mike said and plump for something less - maybe a 15 to match a Camel due to it's Sopwith influence.

For the Gnome, 0-4000 meters, where 10000 feet falls, also falls under climb rate of 3, which shows 13.2 to 23 minutes. I think the climb rate chart has some anomalies, or there is something I am missing on how to use because I also see, for the Le Rhone, 11.5 to 17.4 under climb rate of 2 which matches its clime rate of 10000 feet in 13 minutes.

[flash]

For the Gnome, 0-4000 meters, where 10000 feet falls, also falls under climb rate of 3, which shows 13.2 to 23 minutes. I think the climb rate chart has some anomalies, or there is something I am missing on how to use because I also see, for the Le Rhone, 11.5 to 17.4 under climb rate of 2 which matches its clime rate of 10000 feet in 13 minutes.

Think you're missing how it's used. You're looking at the row for the time to 4,000m - 13,000+ft where you should be looking at the time to 3000m which at 9,800+ft is nearest to 10k ft (3048m) you will get.
The mis-placed Alt 11 climb 5 of the Le Rhone powered Tommy matches with what the committee selected, so it fits.